Discrete Opamps from Orange

This is an old thread, but it might be worth mentioning for anyone who comes across this thread -

Discrete stages are believed to have better audio quality by most HiFi aficionados. This probably isn't the case with guitar effects.

But discrete stages will almost always be considered better when it comes to amplification and driving speakers with higher wattages. QSC (same company and designer as Quilter Amplification) uses discrete class d stages for most of their power amplifiers. This is because the ICs usually don't do as well under the same stress as discrete stages.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but this is what I have been reading about when I came across this thread
 
Discrete opamps for low power audio applications in 2024 are audiophile snake oil. The rationale for their existance is no longer valid. Better IC op amps exist nowadays that any discrete low power part. They made sense back in the early days of LM709 and 741, which were truly not good enough for high end audio.

Source: George Massenburg, one of the earliest designers of discrete op amps, told me that there's no way in hell he would have bothered if op amps as good as what we can get now had been available in the 70s.
 
JTEX said:
Discrete opamps for low power audio applications in 2024 are audiophile snake oil.
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Low power being the key here. I think its a general consensus that ICs are not great for anything producing a lot of heat, such as pushing a lot of watts to a speaker.

The discrete stages allow for the heat to be spread out more evenly.
 
I thought we were talking about low power most of the time on PedalPCB. But there are perfectly valid IC solutions for higher power too. The last 3 fairly large guitar amps I've worked on have power ICs as the final stage (and that's not what failed). Myself I've built a 32x150W amp (yes, 32 channels) that doesn't have a single discrete transistor in it.
 
I'll stick with it: complex discrete op amps may not be worth it, but the boss style ones that require like 3 transistors, 3 resistors and a cap can be pretty cool for some applications. They are less compressed sounding and also clip nicer than ICs.
 
Buy one of these then the 40 bucks are slightly justified :)


www.elektor.de

Das diskrete Operationsverstärker-Kit XL741

Der XL741-Bausatz wird als einfach zu bauender Lötbausatz verkauft. Es enthält die Leiterplatte, Widerstände, Transistoren und Kondensatoren, aus denen der Stromkreis besteht, sowie eine gedruckte Montageanleitung. Das Kit wird außerdem komplett mit dem „IC Leg“-Ständer und acht farbcodierten...
www.elektor.de www.elektor.de
 
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fontoponto said:
Buy one of these then the 40 bucks are slightly justified :)
www.elektor.de

Das diskrete Operationsverstärker-Kit XL741

Der XL741-Bausatz wird als einfach zu bauender Lötbausatz verkauft. Es enthält die Leiterplatte, Widerstände, Transistoren und Kondensatoren, aus denen der Stromkreis besteht, sowie eine gedruckte Montageanleitung. Das Kit wird außerdem komplett mit dem „IC Leg“-Ständer und acht farbcodierten...
www.elektor.de www.elektor.de
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Actually, I'd be curious to actually build a fully discrete LM741 DOD250/Distortion+ just for the sake of it.
 
jesuscrisp said:
I'll stick with it: complex discrete op amps may not be worth it, but the boss style ones that require like 3 transistors, 3 resistors and a cap can be pretty cool for some applications. They are less compressed sounding and also clip nicer than ICs.
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The thing that makes me ask is: is the perceived tonal difference really due to the fact that discrete components are used vs op amp OR is it because using discrete components facilitate tweaking the bias and Other connecting component values to make them behave like we want (ie outside of the designed parameters of the component)
 
Giorfida said:
The thing that makes me ask is: is the perceived tonal difference really due to the fact that discrete components are used vs op amp OR is it because using discrete components facilitate tweaking the bias and Other connecting component values to make them behave like we want (ie outside of the designed parameters of the component)
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I might be tired but I'm getting a headache trying to make sense of this post, sorry.

There's no tweaking/biasing/whatever required, you can drop the Boss discrete op amp into basically any existing circuit that uses IC op amps and it will behave like an op amp but, in fact, sound different.
I don't see how it is controversial that 2 parts made out of a vastly different number of sub-components would behave differently. Whether or not YOU will hear it or find the difference worthwhile/better/worse is up to you. I don't want to judge or call out anyone for being wrong with their preferences or lack of ability to distinguish the difference between component A and B but I strongly dislike this categorical "nothing in pedals makes any difference to tone except for the circuit design" and "I can't hear a difference so it isn't there".
 
jesuscrisp said:
I might be tired but I'm getting a headache trying to make sense of this post, sorry.

There's no tweaking/biasing/whatever required, you can drop the Boss discrete op amp into basically any existing circuit that uses IC op amps and it will behave like an op amp but, in fact, sound different.
I don't see how it is controversial that 2 parts made out of a vastly different number of sub-components would behave differently. Whether or not YOU will hear it or find the difference worthwhile/better/worse is up to you. I don't want to judge or call out anyone for being wrong with their preferences or lack of ability to distinguish the difference between component A and B but I strongly dislike this categorical "nothing in pedals makes any difference to tone except for the circuit design" and "I can't hear a difference so it isn't there".
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Ok you COMPLETELY missed my point and I apologize for being such a shitty communicator- hard to believe English is my native tongue and I’m actually educated at times lol. In other words I believe I may have stated what I was trying to say completely wrong.

I NEVER meant that we tweak anything. What I’m saying is that a real op amp chip is designed for certain specs (stay clean and flat throughout range etc), but is a generic one size fits all solution.
vS
Boss using discrete components to do what an op amp does, they have the ability to optimize which components and choices can be made to give a desired result. In other words, they may not want their discrete op amp to have the same characteristics as a packaged op amp. The engineers did it. I never said WE had to do anything

So my question was: do the sonic differences have to do with how the 2 are designed to function OR is it the fact in one case you have a handful of components sitting open on the board vs the same components encapsulated under a single blob of silicon
 
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