Help me understand Wahs with Fuzz Faces and buffers!

[albinalbinj]

Hi,
I've read so much about this subject that I think I'm starting to go crazy, so I figured I would turn to others who could help me. I have a Wah and a Fuzz Face, and I can do the whole "oscillating FF"-thing when running the Wah into the FF, and it's not a great sound, so I want to learn how to remedy that.

When reading, I've found very conflicting info, I've found the Foxrox and Area 51 buffers claiming to have low impedance buffers which are FF friendly, and I've also read about a resistor in series on the output of the Wah to increase impedance to help the FF work as it should, basically contradicting the Foxrox/Area 51. I thought the FF needed the impedance from the guitar pickups, so a low impedance buffer should not work, right? I've also found the Jam Pedals Wahcko which states that they have their own bufferless circuit that enables you to have the FF after the Wah. I also know that it's generally said that buffers before FF is a bad idea, so I can't figure this whole thing out.

I'm very confused on what the solution for this problem is, and also how the best solution actually works, if it should be high or low output impedance from the Wah etc. I would be very thankful if someone could just give me pointers on the theoretical and electronic theory on why these two pedals struggle to cooperate, so I could learn from it. Like does the FF want high or low impedance, and whatever the case is, what is the best way to achieve this?

Thankful for any help or insights

 

[Nostradoomus]

The fuzz face whisperer must be summoned. Say his name in the mirror 3 times.

@Big Monk

 

[Harry Klippton]

The fuzz face whisperer must be summoned. Say his name in the mirror 3 times.

@Big Monk

You'll never get rid of him

 

[Big Monk]

Here is my technical write up in the subject:

A Technical Guide to Fuzz Buffering

Our Advanced Discussion About the Proper Buffering of a Vintage Style Fuzz.

bigmonkdevices.com

 

[albinalbinj]

Here is my technical write up in the subject:

A Technical Guide to Fuzz Buffering

Our Advanced Discussion About the Proper Buffering of a Vintage Style Fuzz.

bigmonkdevices.com

Thanks, I've read that write up before I made this post, and it's great! I think the main thing I'm still confused about is that in the schematic for the Foxrox, there is a series resistance at the end, which I interpret your write up as saying that you have as well, but when looking at other buffers, such as the AMZ, there is no resistance at the output, but it still says that it's a buffer that will help with a FF. I understand that the buffers isolate the Wah and FF from each other so that they don't affect each other, but I don't understand what the output impedance should be on the Wah.

 

[spi]

Here is my technical write up in the subject:

A Technical Guide to Fuzz Buffering

Our Advanced Discussion About the Proper Buffering of a Vintage Style Fuzz.

bigmonkdevices.com

I think your definition of "technical" is different than mine.

 

[Big Monk]

Thanks, I've read that write up before I made this post, and it's great! I think the main thing I'm still confused about is that in the schematic for the Foxrox, there is a series resistance at the end, which I interpret your write up as saying that you have as well, but when looking at other buffers, such as the AMZ, there is no resistance at the output, but it still says that it's a buffer that will help with a FF. I understand that the buffers isolate the Wah and FF from each other so that they don't affect each other, but I don't understand what the output impedance should be on the Wah.

You have to look at in pieces.

In layman’s terms:

1.) A high input impedance at the input of the fuzz face only makes it so it won’t squeal or have a mismatch. This means an up front buffering with no tailoring on its output impedance feeding the input of the fuzz face.

2.) An impedance on the order of 7.5k-22k at the output of the buffer FEEDING the input of the fuzz face is going to make it so the full on fuzz (fuzz at maximum and guitar volume up) is not impacted by the buffer.

Remember that pickup DCR is not the whole story. Dave at FoxRox determined through trial and error that full up fuzz sounded best with his buffer if the buffer output impedance was 22k.

3.) If you want the fuzz to also be able to clean up after the buffer you need to strategically chop of some high end and low end.

The fuzz face/guitar volume interaction is driven by the selective low end roll off caused by the guitar control circuit.

In summary:

1.) High Input Inpedance on the buffer solves placement issues. Meaning you can put the fuzz anywhere and it won’t squeal or have an overall impedance mismatch.

2.) Specific buffer output impedance on the buffer means you can have the roaring full fuzz tone unaffected as well.

3.) Specific high and low end roll off at the output of the buffer means you can preserves Dynamics (cleanup and touch sensitivity).