End of chain buffer combo question

[geoffrey]

Hi All,

First, a disclaimer: I've read tons of threads and posts on buffers today, but didn't see anything that really helped with my question. If I missed something and this post is superfluous, I apologize.

So the last "pedal" in my chain is my beloved tone conditioner supreme: the Clandestine Preamp. It took that spot as soon as I built and experimented with it, and it's not going anywhere. In between the Clandestine and the amp, I have an always on, stand alone Fuzzdog Klon buffer enclosed in a 1590A, and my what a difference this makes regarding the health of my signal. That said, I'm now hoping to free up that spot on my board (and make that power source available) by attempting to house an end of chain buffer in with my Clandestine. So now I come to you, the brain trust, to help me decide the best way to do this.

On option (I think) would be to make a combo pedal with Clandestine and @Robert's Kliche Buffer (I have one on hand). Sure, it may be a tight squeeze but at least I know for sure the buffer circuit is after the Clandestine, which is important, right?

Or maybe this is not as important as I think and I could get the job done and save a lot of space in the enclosure by using stomp switch buffer boards like @Robert's C-Buffer or Guitarpcb's 3PDT Buffer board, but these options would place the buffer before the Clandestine circuit, correct? I think this matters, but maybe not.

There's also GGG's IC Buffer board that I've barely taken a look at, but I know lots of you like it.

So that's my train of thought right now on how to complete this goal. What option (if any) is best for what I'm trying to do? Or am I missing something? As always, many thanks for your help.

 

[bhcarpenter]

Lots of hype for the Clandestine lately! I need to get off my rear and build one.

If you plan to leave the Clandestine on all the time there’s a good chance that having a buffer after it is pointless, as most pedals these days are designed with a low impedance output. I’ll leave the analysis of the circuit to people who actually know what they’re doing, but you may just want to try switching your buffer in and out after the clandestine and see if you can hear a difference.

 

[Feral Feline]

I would say adding the buffer to the always-on pedal is a waste of the buffer.

However, if you ever turn the Clandestine off, then a buffer may be desirable depending on the rest of your signal chain and how long that total chain is (patch cables and main lead from guitar to board and length of lead from board to amp).

You could always build the buffer and the Clandestine into a single enclosure and route it so the stomper turns on the buffer when the Clandestine is off and turns off the buffer when the Clandestine comes on.

The beauty of DIY: tailoring your signal chain to your exact specific needs/circumstances.

 

[geoffrey]

Lots of hype for the Clandestine lately! I need to get off my rear and build one.

If you plan to leave the Clandestine on all the time there’s a good chance that having a buffer after it is pointless, as most pedals these days are designed with a low impedance output. I’ll leave the analysis of the circuit to people who actually know what they’re doing, but you may just want to try switching your buffer in and out after the clandestine and see if you can hear a difference.

Good advice. And you definitely need to build a Clandestine...more than well worth it

 

[geoffrey]

I would say adding the buffer to the always-on pedal is a waste of the buffer.

However, if you ever turn the Clandestine off, then a buffer may be desirable depending on the rest of your signal chain and how long that total chain is (patch cables and main lead from guitar to board and length of lead from board to amp).

You could always build the buffer and the Clandestine into a single enclosure and route it so the stomper turns on the buffer when the Clandestine is off and turns off the buffer when the Clandestine comes on.

The beauty of DIY: tailoring your signal chain to your exact specific needs/circumstances.

As usual, thanks for the great advice, @Feral Feline. I might have to discuss this further with you regarding how to properly route this.

One questions that arises as I try to learn more is: if most pedals have a low impedance output, why would anyone need a buffer at the end of their chain (as is often suggested)?

 

[bhcarpenter]

why would anyone need a buffer at the end of their chain (as is often suggested)?

Good question! I think it’s to counteract the impact of capacitance due to any cabling between your last enabled pedal and the end of your board. If you’re always running out of an enabled pedal directly to the amp, it shouldn’t be needed (usually)

 

[geoffrey]

If you plan to leave the Clandestine on all the time there’s a good chance that having a buffer after it is pointless, as most pedals these days are designed with a low impedance output

Interestingly, I just read in another forum that the Secret Preamp (Clandestine) has a high impedance output. I'm wondering if this may be due to the age of the circuit it is meant to recreate (echoplex), but what do I know? Anyway, even though I don't know the person who posted this, he did state he has his Secret Preamp at the end the chain as well and seems to benefit from running a buffer after it, so maybe I should consider going ahead with my idea. Don't get me wrong, I'm still going to experiment as you suggested - I'm not trying to waste precious time (or a buffer, as @Feral Feline warned).

I would say adding the buffer to the always-on pedal is a waste of the buffer.

Considering the possibility that Clandestine does indeed have a high impedance output, would this change your thoughts at all?

 

[bhcarpenter]

I just read in another forum that the Secret Preamp (Clandestine) has a high impedance output.

Oooh interesting! Now I’m glad that I qualified my answers above with “usually” and “most of the time”.

You may very well hear a difference with and without a buffer after the Clandestine then - depending on how long your cable run from pedalboard to amp is. Let your ears be your guide! A lot of folks like *some* high end roll off into their amp.

 

[Feral Feline]

...
Considering the possibility that Clandestine does indeed have a high impedance output, would this change your thoughts at all?

Absolutely. From what I've read, rule of thumb is circuits should be: High-impedance Input / Low-impedance Output.

I don't know what exceptions to the rule there are, but I'm sure there is an exception of some kind somewhere.

Oh, and BHCarpenter addressed the capacitance issue I alluded to in my earlier post in the thread.

 

[geoffrey]

Many thanks for your expertise, gents! if you think of anything else or if anyone else wants to opine, I'm all ears!

I'll keep you posted on what I end up doing here

 

[zeropluszero]

Following as I was thinking of doing the exact same thing.

 

[geoffrey]

To follow up, I asked fuzzdog about this and he said if it's an always on pedal (which in my case, it is), than an output buffer will work just as well as a stand alone.

However, if you plan on turning the pedal off, true bypass will take the output buffer out off the chain. So unless the pedal has buffered bypass and/or is always on, there's no substitute for a stand alone buffer. He also opined regarding FET, BJT or opamp - they all do the same job in different ways and it's doubtful you'd ever notice a difference between them.

So I'm going to slap an output buffer on the clandestine since it's always on. Otherwise, I'd consider adding a buffered bypass in addition to the output buffer or just cramming a stand alone into an enclosure with it.

 

[noak]

To follow up, I asked fuzzdog about this and he said if it's an always on pedal (which in my case, it is), than an output buffer will work just as well as a stand alone.

However, if you plan on turning the pedal off, true bypass will take the output buffer out off the chain. So unless the pedal has buffered bypass and/or is always on, there's no substitute for a stand alone buffer. He also opined regarding FET, BJT or opamp - they all do the same job in different ways and it's doubtful you'd ever notice a difference between them.

So I'm going to slap an output buffer on the clandestine since it's always on. Otherwise, I'd consider adding a buffered bypass in addition to the output buffer or just cramming a stand alone into an enclosure with it.

Just curious if you got this built? Thinking of doing something similar and wanted to see how it worked out.