Pauper problems?

[Mike McLane]

I just picked up a real McCoy Prince of Tone to compare to my Pauper build. Overall they sound very similar, however, the POT has noticeably more "girth". Nothing extreme, but when A/B'ing you definitely get a more "meat" from the POT. I ran the Pauper thru a 10-band EQ and as best my ear can determine I just needed a couple of dB boost around the 250-500 Hz area. What could I attribute this to? Could it be a "capacitor thing"? Most of them have a fairly wide tolerance (+/- 20%) so I'm wondering if such variances could account for these minor differences.

 

[Big Monk]

I just picked up a real McCoy Prince of Tone to compare to my Pauper build. Overall they sound very similar, however, the POT has noticeably more "girth". Nothing extreme, but when A/B'ing you definitely get a more "meat" from the POT. I ran the Pauper thru a 10-band EQ and as best my ear can determine I just needed a couple of dB boost around the 250-500 Hz area. What could I attribute this to? Could it be a "capacitor thing"? Most of them have a fairly wide tolerance (+/- 20%) so I'm wondering if such variances could account for these minor differences.

Are the Presence trim settings the same?

 

[Mike McLane]

As much as I can get them. I have the presence trimmers dimed and DIPs are all set to ON. The difference is minor enough that I don't that won't loose sleep over it. Just the same I'm trying to use this to gain a better understanding of how this pedal design thing works. If somebody responds and says "Check out C2. It does blah, blah ,blah so if its value is significantly off spec it will cause blah, blah, blah which allows more of the lower mids to shunt to ground, hence the slightly thinner sound." Great! Or they may say, "Happens with every pedal build. Build multiples of the same pedal and you will almost always find they all have their own personality. Its just the way it is." OK, great, too!

 

[TravisM]

I think you can start with the mods listed here.

Paragon PCB Mods

Hi all, I have built about 10 or so KOT clones using the Paragon board, and I came up with a handful of mods with the goal of getting closer to the warm KOT sound, as well as adding some versatility with external switches. The clones I've been building have gotten a decent amount of support and...

forum.pedalpcb.com

 

[Mike McLane]

Thx! I'll look all of this over!

 

[MichaelW]

Thx! I'll look all of this over!

There's definitely a wealth of info in the post @TravisM linked. I did the "warmer tone mod" in my full size Paragon builds and they definitely sound "meatier" than the stock Paragon build. There are some minor differences in the Paragon BOM vs the KOT schematic. I wonder of that is also true of the Pauper? I just built my Pauper earlier this week and pretty much built it stock PedalPCB values with the exception of changing the gain pot to B250k. I don't have a real POT to compare it to but it sounds pretty darn good. Which clipping diodes did you use in your Pauper build? And can you tell what's in the POT? Maybe that might be the source of difference? I can definitely hear more "girth" in certain hard clippers (like the 1SS133 or BAT41's) compare to 1N914's.

 

[Mike McLane]

Hey MichaelW. . . I've looked over the CKAudioEffects tutorial. As to the "warmer mod", relative to the Pauper schematic appears to be the following: C1 = 33n, C4 = 22n, add 56pf MLCC cap parallel with R7. Maek sense to you? BTW, What does the 250K Gain pot get you?

 

[MichaelW]

Hey MichaelW. . . I've looked over the CKAudioEffects tutorial. As to the "warmer mod", relative to the Pauper schematic appears to be the following: C1 = 33n, C4 = 22n, add 56pf MLCC cap parallel with R7. Maek sense to you? BTW, What does the 250K Gain pot get you?

I’ll need to verify against the schematic but that sounds about right. I actually did not do the warmer tone mod on my Pauper. I did on my Paragon and Paragon Mini builds. The Mini did not really need it. For some reason the “brightness” issue seems to be limited to the full size Paragon. On my mini I actually have the presence trimmers turned about 50% to compensate for the warmer tone mod. The B250k pot gives you more gain. So instead of bumping the gain resistor and having a “fixed” higher gain pedal, the 250k pot extends the gain range without losing the low gain settings. It’s like adding another 1/4 turn of gain to the knob

 

[Mike McLane]

Didn't answer your previous question. . . . used MA856's in my Pauper build (which are supposed to be the original spec). From your description I'm getting the notion that capacitor variance causes these subtle shifts in the tonality from pedal to pedal in multiple builds of the same pedal. That's probably why Analog Man spends so much time tweaking their KOT's by hand. Shouldn't raising the value of C1 and/or C4 put more low end in the signal path?

 

[Mike McLane]

I wanted to remember a PPCB Forum thread that anguished over the details of the Pauper/Paragon component values, etc. Well, I found it and in the process a link to a That Pedal Show episode where the KOT/POT variance issues are on full display. Their experience is identical to mine. It just appears that "shit happens". You buy the same parts, build the same circuit and they all still sound a little bit different. This is a good episode for hobby builders. . . . keep things in perspective.

 

[MichaelW]

I wanted to remember a PPCB Forum thread that anguished over the details of the Pauper/Paragon component values, etc. Well, I found it and in the process a link to a That Pedal Show episode where the KOT/POT variance issues are on full display. Their experience is identical to mine. It just appears that "shit happens". You buy the same parts, build the same circuit and they all still sound a little bit different. This is a good episode for hobby builders. . . . keep things in perspective.

Haha, ya, I watched that show, it that was the show that got me interested in the KOT to begin with. Until I saw that show the KOT wasn't on my radar at all. Then, I was like "I must go and see this site on the mountain......."

I started off trying to buy a POT with the "every Wednesday release at 1pm Eastern" thing. I tried a couple of times and actually got one in my cart once and as I was filling out address and payment info it ghosted from my cart.

That's when I said "f*** it, this is ridiculous" and bought the Chinese KOT clone. Then I discovered PedalPCB.com and found out I could build my own......

I don't know how close my builds sound to the real thing, and I'm not sure I really care. The ones I built are awesome sounding pedals and have become my favorite drive pedal. And I'm still experimenting....

 

[MichaelW]

Didn't answer your previous question. . . . used MA856's in my Pauper build (which are supposed to be the original spec). From your description I'm getting the notion that capacitor variance causes these subtle shifts in the tonality from pedal to pedal in multiple builds of the same pedal. That's probably why Analog Man spends so much time tweaking their KOT's by hand. Shouldn't raising the value of C1 and/or C4 put more low end in the signal path?

Sorry, took a bit to get back to the schematic, yes C1 and C4 would correspond to the C1 and C4 of the warmer tone mod of the full size Paragon. Then put a parallel 56p cap across the 22ok resister at R7.

But I did not find that either of this was needed on the Pauper. It doesn't seem to have the same problem the 56p cap was addressing, which was taming some of the fizziness of the full size Paragon build.

I'm willing to bet that your real POT does not use MA856's in it. But more likely it's using BA282's. Which to ME sound a bit "girthier" than the MA858/MA856.

 

[Mike McLane]

Since MA856's are no longer available (except thru NOS vendors) that makes sense. I think that That Pedal Show video should be required viewing for new pedal builders. The variances they experienced, even btw the two original KOT's that were scrupulously hand built and tested, were on par with what I experienced with this Pauper build. Good lesson in realistic expectations.

 

[MichaelW]

Since MA856's are no longer available (except thru NOS vendors) that makes sense. I think that That Pedal Show video should be required viewing for new pedal builders. The variances they experienced, even btw the two original KOT's that were scrupulously hand built and tested, were on par with what I experienced with this Pauper build. Good lesson in realistic expectations.

I love That Pedal Show although I generally don't have the patience to sit through a full 45 min video and listen to all the banter.

But that tone that Daniel gets with "HIS" KOT through the red tele, oh man, that's the stuff dreams are made of. That's the tone that was in my head I was chasing when I started building the Paragons. I think he runs his both sides on all the time, if I recall.