Is vintage "better"?

J

Joben Magooch

Well-known member
Intentionally ambiguous title, I know.

I had the pleasure of stopping into Gruhn Guitars in Nashville this past week. Kind of a bucket-list type of place for me. For those who aren't familiar, Gruhn's is considered by many to be one of the foremost vintage guitar dealers in the US (if not globally). They have a ton of vintage gear coming and going and from what I could tell aren't particularly protective or stingy about letting you just come in and try it out.

So that's what I did! Now I was just passing through and somewhat short on time, so didn't get to get a crack at everything, but still tried a few fun pieces.

First thing that caught my eye was a 1964 Precision Bass. Asking price $12,500. It had "vibe" and "mojo" for days but honestly...beyond that...not particularly special to play. And the same was largely the case with this 1965 Jaguar ($14,000). Super cool to get to say you played it, and certainly not a BAD instrument by any means, but again not a particularly special player. I tried out a handful of 70's Strats and found them just okay, too. (Now to be fair the 70s are not known to be a particularly golden era for Fender, but the late 50s/60s stuff that was pushing 30, 40, 50k was not out on the floor for everyone to play).

Conversely...I played that '64 P alongside a Fender Custom Shop '65 Precision (new production) and thought the CS P-bass blew the socks off the vintage one. Granted that's still a $5,000 instrument, which is of course nothing to scoff at (and nothing I will be purchasing any time soon) but I felt it was miles ahead of the $12,500 one. In the more "attainable" category, they had some $2,000 AVRI's that I thought were every bit as nice, too. And I don't even mean "for the money," I mean price aside the CS and AVRI both were as good if not better of players than the vintage one. Of course I would not presume one instrument to be indicative of all vintage instruments, but still found it rather interesting. In the same way, the modern "high-end" Fender stuff was every bit as nice as most of the vintage stuff they had out on the floor.

Perhaps what I found most interesting however was an interaction I overheard between a different customer and salesperson. There was an older gentleman who had gotten permission to try out a few of the older vintage Strats - as previously mentioned, stuff that was pushing $20-30-40,000. He pulled an old-looking strat off the wall and took it up to the sales counter and said "What's the story with this one? I don't see any year on it" and the guy behind the counter said "There's no story with that one. It's a brand new guitar from Fender". Now again this was a $5,000 custom shop guitar, and I don't know if the guy trying it out was an expert of any sort, but it seemed to be good enough to fool him into thinking it was the same ballpark as the 20, 30, 40k instruments he'd been trying. The guy behind the counter went on to more or less say that for his money he'd much sooner buy something out of the custom shop as it's far more consistent and 9 times out of 10 will produce a considerably better playing instrument when you set aside the "mojo" factor of an older instrument.

Anyways, just found kind of the whole thing interesting. What's your experience been? Is vintage really "worth it" as a player's instrument, or anymore is it really more of an "investment" type of thing?
 
I'll also add that in terms of "modern" stuff I played a bunch of Suhrs, Collings electric, Tom Anderson, etc and found that the USA Silver Sky they had out could *easily* hang with any of the high end stuff from the aforementioned "boutique" brands and other high-end PRS stuff, too. I was really pretty impressed with the Fender American Vintage II line in general, too.
 
The two words Gruhn and Nashville make me sigh: 30 years ago I was in Nashville and found my dream guitar at Gruhn's - a 1960 Gibson Les Paul Special double cutaway TV white. I couldn't justify the 3 Grands for it at that time.... sigh
 
I went to Gruhn when I was around 13 years old. George himself was there and gave my some cool books and tee shirts that were leftover from a reopening party they had after moving locations or something like that. Got to play a $125k mandolin, and the only thing I personally felt was that I was unable to appreciate any musicality or “mojo” the instrument had since the anxiety of knowing how precious it was overshadowed anything else.

I also got to play an Epi Casino that was supposedly from the same week as George Harrison’s, and that was pretty damn cool. Honestly didn’t play half as nice as my 2012 Epiphone John Lennon casino though, despite being worth around 15x more.

The only vintage instruments that really impressed me all that much was a pair of vintage Rickenbacker 12 strings that I got to play, which felt much more solid than the 5 or 6 modern Rickenbacker 12s I’ve tried over the years, but then again so does my $400 danelectro 12 string 😅

Outside of Gruhn I’ve played some exceptional vintage instruments too, but for every incredible vintage piece, there’s at least one or two stinkers.
 
I’m not really surprised by all this. Vintage instruments can be fantastic and also really cool. But back in the day Fender did not have the level of quality control and consistency that a modern company does. You will find amazing vintage Strats but also others that play terribly, have lots of issues and don’t sound great. And I think vintage aficionados will agree with that.

I have never tried a 60’s Fender but I’m sure I won’t bond with it automatically. That’s also a very personal thing and, at least for me, it depends as much on the setup as it does the pickups (which have the largest impact on tone), hardware, woods and finish (which have minor impact). I have tried some decent 70’s strats, but they did not compare to an American Standard I tried in 2012.

Bottom line: my philosophy is to try it in the store and if you’re in love with it and can afford it, get it. Don’t buy online a very expensive guitar! Ever!
 
giovanni said:
But back in the day Fender did not have the level of quality control and consistency that a modern company does. You will find amazing vintage Strats but also others that play terribly, have lots of issues and don’t sound great. And I think vintage aficionados will agree with that.
Click to expand...
Not only that, but my theory at least, is that the guitars that were more flawed and less playable are the guitars that didn’t see as much abuse and wear over the years because people were less inclined to play them, and a lot of the pristine vintage examples that just don’t have the “feel” or the “mojo” are proof of that. Meanwhile the guitars with the best quality control in turn inspired their owners to play them a lot more, leading them to see a lot more abuse as they became like ancient decrepit relics, which again makes them less pleasant and playable for most people: you know how there are all these reports of people playing some rock legend’s #1 guitar 40 or 50 years down the line, and how to them it’s unplayable with high action, a weirdly warped neck, and weird dents and gouges in the neck that make it uncomfortable? Well they didn’t start that way, but the player traveled the journey with that guitar, and each of those issues that made the guitar less insteps playable were separate incidents that gradually occurred over the history of that player’s use, and so each one was a quick adjustment and not necessarily noticeable to them, because to them it wasn’t a new guitar one day and a beat up suspension bridge the next— it was a series of countless imperceptible changes that they acclimated to accordingly.

That means the best vintage guitars are going to be the ones that both had good QC and were owned by players who either didn’t play much, or babied their gear— what the relic industry calls a “closet classic” I think… and that’s a much smaller pool to draw from.
 
Bricksnbeatles said:
Not only that, but my theory at least, is that the guitars that were more flawed and less playable are the guitars that didn’t see as much abuse and wear over the years because people were less inclined to play them, and a lot of the pristine vintage examples that just don’t have the “feel” or the “mojo” are proof of that. Meanwhile the guitars with the best quality control in turn inspired their owners to play them a lot more, leading them to see a lot more abuse as they became like ancient decrepit relics, which again makes them less pleasant and playable for most people: you know how there are all these reports of people playing some rock legend’s #1 guitar 40 or 50 years down the line, and how to them it’s unplayable with high action, a weirdly warped neck, and weird dents and gouges in the neck that make it uncomfortable? Well they didn’t start that way, but the player traveled the journey with that guitar, and each of those issues that made the guitar less insteps playable were separate incidents that gradually occurred over the history of that player’s use, and so each one was a quick adjustment and not necessarily noticeable to them, because to them it wasn’t a new guitar one day and a beat up suspension bridge the next— it was a series of countless imperceptible changes that they acclimated to accordingly.

That means the best vintage guitars are going to be the ones that both had good QC and were owned by players who either didn’t play much, or babied their gear— what the relic industry calls a “closet classic” I think… and that’s a much smaller pool to draw from.
Click to expand...
My 74 p bass was an "under the bed" gem that a guitarist buddy of mine literally slept on for 30 years. So it fits that scenario of a good player who just didn't use it. He got it for himself to join a band in the late 70s that was very short lived and then switched back to guitar. He dug it out for me to play on his record and a few gigs then gave it to me. I know it's "home" to me now but I've been shopping for another for quite a while and have not played an instrument that's as alive as mine. Most of the 60's basses I've handled have been duds, my high school had a decent 75 that looked like it had been dragged behind the bus. Mine has put instruments I built for myself "under the bed."

I highly recommend this method of instrument acquisition. Fall in love with your friend's guitar so hard that they give it to you.
 
Last edited:
I have a couple of (player-grade) pre-cbs jazzmasters, as well as another that's a parts build made of all vintage parts ('59 PUs and tailpiece, '65 body, '80 neck); as much as I love those guitars I play a pretty run-of-the-mill parts build about 10x as much as the others. I don't worry about leaving it in our practice space, or taking it to shows, I don't care if I drop it, I have no compunction about swapping pickups or ripping the electronics out, etc.

I feel the same way about that guitar and treat it the same way I did my 1963 jazzmaster back in like 1998 after I first got it for a whopping $500CAD. It was a not-particularly-valuable cool beater that I wasn't afraid to throw across a stage or beat around. Now it feels too precious and irreplaceable to actually enjoy.

Now that a late-90s AVRI JM is a $3000 guitar, I think I'm officially out of the guitar acquisition game, it's just not very fun anymore.
 
Not much experience with ultra high end stuff but I can appreciate it for it's rarity. The only vintage stuff I've ever played that I'd sell a kidney for were an old 50's LP Custom Black Beauty when they had the P90 and Staple pickups and the top was mahogany and not maple. It was very nice although it looked like it spent time in a cement mixer it was so beat up.

The other was a cherry red Trini Lopez from early to mid 60's. To this day likely the finest guitar I've ever played. Near mint condition and was in the repair shop for a general setup and some TLC. One of those rare beasts that you think Gibson was at it's peak.

I've found my soulmate in a 1999/2000 Yamaha that is a combination of being my perfect guitar and at 20+ years old was a bargain at less than a grand.
 
I visited Gruhns when it was downtown before the flood happened.probably mid 80s I guess. I never picked anything up to play it though. Dangerous Threads around the corner was cool. Visited carters a few years ago, nothing really spoke to me. Ended up buying a Les paul at the Gibson garage.
 
I visited Gruhns back in the '80s. I visited a lot of guitar stores on that trip and Gruhns was by far the most expensive. I think Gruhn was instrumental in the rise of prices of old guitars. But as a keen young player I was excited to see the famous Gruhn Guitars and was rather let down by a surly, pretentious sales assistant as my first point of contact. Rather soured my impression of Gruhns on the whole. I didn't see anything remarkable.

Many years later I visited Lark St Guitars in New Jersey and got to meet the friendly Buzzy who I had spoken to on the phone once or twice. I have mentioned before about playing a genuine '59 Les Paul there - tried it through a '55 tweed Pro which impressed me more than the guitar. I much prefer my '59 Les Paul RI. There is a heck of a lot of BS spoken about old Gibsons.

There are some amazing old guitars I am certain, but as Giovanni says QC is much better these days. Plus they were still learning about what made a great guitar, and what players actually wanted. Older Fenders weren't designed for string bending so are harder to play modern styles on in a lot of cases.

I understand why folks want to collect but I don't like how it forces such silly prices on things. I have no interest in collecting just to have. I buy guitars for the sound and playability. As long as it sounds and plays how I like I don't care when it was made.
 
I've played a couple of '56 Strats and a '57 at a Luthier-friend's place in HK.
Played a few vintage Martins that belonged to some friends.
Played a '30-something Gibson Mandolin many times, which belongs to a friend.

All sounded great, all played wonderfully. All were properly setup and maintained.

The same can be said for modern instruments I've played, ones that were set up well played beautifully and sounded great.
The biggest difference is — I've never played a poorly set-up vintage instrument (apart from my own).

I've been into vintage stuff since... forever. Growing up other kids got Grandma to buy them comic-books, I got my Gran to buy me StreetRodder and other old-car mags (blame my Dad: "Oh look son, a 1956 Buick!"), that car interest and my Dad also in turn exposed me to Buddy Holly, Eddie Cochrane — still have Dad's original Elvis platter, the one with pink and green lettering that the Clash and many other bands have copied.
However...
The prices on vintage guitars are nuts, given you can get good playability and tones out of modern gear, why bother with vintage? —
yet I still like/want vintage gear, I just can't afford it...





...save my one guitar, price swung way down low,
A one-off pre-internet deal, only one, way to go...)
I just gotta start rockin' it, practice til I drop
Gotta keep practicin', someday gonna have some serious chops

And maybe be a YootToob Hero, get followers that "like"
Yeah, be a YootToob Hero,
Learn licks on guitar (YootToob Hero, with followers that "like")
YootToob Hero, (have followers that "like"), I'll start practicin' tonight.
 
I’ve been to Gruhn’s a couple of times in my life. To me it’s more interesting like a museum is interesting. Kind of cool looking at old relics of days gone past that were the start of what we use now, seeing the progression of ideas (or not in terms of aesthetics), but I don’t walk into the Smithsonian to ask to buy the T-Rex skeleton or handle the shrunken heads. The last time I was there the friend I was with got to play a pre-war Martin that had a price tag of a mere $185k, more than what I bought my house for😬. I sure as shit wasn’t going to touch it. Having grown up in the company of antiques collectors I have a bit of an aversion to the delicate nature and mustiness of old things. That said, for my 40th my wife purchased a players grade 74 335 as my gift since I had always wanted a 335. 74 was smack dab in the Norlin production cost cutting days so it doesn’t have a full center block and a slim 3 piece neck with volute. It has had several different tail pieces and bridges, pups and tuners changed, but thankfully no headstock breaks. I sadly don’t love it and the inherent musty smell doesn’t help. I’m not so scared to play it since it has been around the block a few times, but does it’s age/vintage-ness make it more desirable? Meh. According to Reverb prices apparently even my least desirable era guitar has mojo worth a hefty price tag. Were I to go back, I would probably request a new production guitar, not even necessarily a Gibson.
 
I guess the flip side is that if you have a spare $10-30K to park somewhere, a collector-grade vintage guitar is probably not the worst place to put it.
 
mdc said:
I guess the flip side is that if you have a spare $10-30K to park somewhere, a collector-grade vintage guitar is probably not the worst place to put it.
Click to expand...
Investing in anything is always a risk. A ton of people dumped $125k-225k (each) into late 50's to early 60's gear in the late 90's. By the time the 00's rolled around most had lost 75% of their collectors value.....
 
Last edited:
Diynot said:
I’ve been to Gruhn’s a couple of times in my life. To me it’s more interesting like a museum is interesting. Kind of cool looking at old relics of days gone past that were the start of what we use now, seeing the progression of ideas (or not in terms of aesthetics), but I don’t walk into the Smithsonian to ask to buy the T-Rex skeleton or handle the shrunken heads. The last time I was there the friend I was with got to play a pre-war Martin that had a price tag of a mere $185k, more than what I bought my house for😬. I sure as shit wasn’t going to touch it. Having grown up in the company of antiques collectors I have a bit of an aversion to the delicate nature and mustiness of old things. That said, for my 40th my wife purchased a players grade 74 335 as my gift since I had always wanted a 335. 74 was smack dab in the Norlin production cost cutting days so it doesn’t have a full center block and a slim 3 piece neck with volute. It has had several different tail pieces and bridges, pups and tuners changed, but thankfully no headstock breaks. I sadly don’t love it and the inherent musty smell doesn’t help. I’m not so scared to play it since it has been around the block a few times, but does it’s age/vintage-ness make it more desirable? Meh. According to Reverb prices apparently even my least desirable era guitar has mojo worth a hefty price tag. Were I to go back, I would probably request a new production guitar, not even necessarily a Gibson.
Click to expand...
Yeah that smell! I had a very nice '60 ES125 with the single cutaway and two P90s. Sounded excellent, played well and was a great colour as most of the red had faded from the otherwise hideous cherryburst. So it was a kind of amber/orange and it looked awesome. But after playing it for 20 minutes I would get a headache from the decomposing finish. It smelt musty with a hint of sharp ether.

Now I have a 2015 ES225 which smells nice, plays just as well and sounds even better. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top