Question About Selling

[Stickman393]

Speaking as a man who really only likes engaging in the idea of building a pedal brand, and doesn't really sell anything to anybody. Really.

My opinion here was not asked for, so I'll just kinda hang out here. Don't mind me.

 

[jdduffield]

Speaking as a man who really only likes engaging in the idea of building a pedal brand, and doesn't really sell anything to anybody. Really.

My opinion here was not asked for, so I'll just kinda hang out here. Don't mind me.

I probably shouldn’t have said this was a question for “those of you who sell”. That probably sounded rude of me. My intent was not to exclude, but to get an answer from experience vs hypothetical. I’d love to hear your thoughts.

As far as selling… I figured I’d try selling and worst case scenario it doesn’t work and I get to give everything away as Christmas gifts. But honestly, I’m doing okay at the moment and believe it is going to get better with time.

As far as the FV1 stuff… Some of my favorite pedals are reverbs and delays that go beyond the PT2399, so I’ve been thinking of giving it a try. Plus I think I can get the hang of it based on current skills and passions.

I ended up getting the FV1 at a rate of $11.70. So assuming I can figure out how to program it and solder it, I doubt I’ll lose any money on sales. We’ll see. (I think I can add another $12 to the pedal price to balance it out.)

 

[Big Monk]

I can speak from experience that people want the very best at the very cheapest.

It’s also an incredibly soft market so good luck selling onesey twosey DIY pedals at anything approaching $100 unless it’s absolutely impeccable inside and out.

 

[jdduffield]

I can speak from experience that people want the very best at the very cheapest.

It’s also an incredibly soft market so good luck selling onesey twosey DIY pedals at anything approaching $100 unless it’s absolutely impeccable inside and out.

I’m noticing that.

 

[Big Monk]

I’m noticing that.

In a saturated market, and a soft one at that, you have to offer good sounds at the very cheapest price possible.

I’ve had to transistion to full SMD and cut costs at nearly every corner of the to sell 20+ at a time.

I am finishing up redesigning many of my offerings into a “Core” 125B line. The goal has been to reduce my build times and keep my same high quality builds and packaging.

I’d rather sell 30+ cheaper pedals than none at all.

 

[jdduffield]

In a saturated market, and a soft one at that, you have to offer good sounds at the very cheapest price possible.

I’ve had to transistion to full SMD and cut costs at nearly every corner of the to sell 20+ at a time.

I am finishing up redesigning many of my offerings into a “Core” 125B line. The goal has been to reduce my build times and keep my same high quality builds and packaging.

I’d rather sell 30+ cheaper pedals than none at all.

I’ll be thinking of ways to keep cost reasonable. I enjoy the process of working with through hole soldering, so if I were to ever go full SMD, I’d probably still want to do a few the other way here and there just because I enjoy it so much.

I was playing with “price” on Reverb, thinking $89 was a bargain. There was no interest until it hit $65. That seems to be the sweet spot. I was thinking it was because I’m not established yet, or just that this season is slow and a wave will come with the holidays. It sounds more like everyone is experiencing this… that the market is like that now. Hopefully it will get better.

What that means is my time is not paid well yet. I need to get my profit up. I’m making a little profit, but not my target yet. I’ve got time to figure it out, so I’m not worried about it.

I should add that my venturing into the FV1 stuff will hopefully help with that first part, giving the quality of product a lift! It is an experiment at this point. If I have to tuck tail and go back to the overdrive and fuzz circuits, that’s okay with me.

 

[vigilante398]

The goal has been to reduce my build times and keep my same high quality builds and packaging.

This is the way.

My builds are the same if not better quality than they were when I started selling, but I can build them way faster now.

Once you're famous you can get away with spending a week on every pedal and charging accordingly, but as has been said before, until you have a reputation that justifies a higher price, you're going to have to sell cheap.

I have a friend that releases all new products with a 25-40% "discount" to start building interest, then as soon as sales are consistent and feedback is good, he brings the prices up to where he actually wants them to be.

Sorry this thread has gotten so far away from FV-1 talk, but hopefully there have been some helpful tidbits for you.

 

[Big Monk]

I’ll be thinking of ways to keep cost reasonable. I enjoy the process of working with through hole soldering, so if I were to ever go full SMD, I’d probably still want to do a few the other way here and there just because I enjoy it so much.

I was playing with “price” on Reverb, thinking $89 was a bargain. There was no interest until it hit $65. That seems to be the sweet spot. I was thinking it was because I’m not established yet, or just that this season is slow and a wave will come with the holidays. It sounds more like everyone is experiencing this… that the market is like that now. Hopefully it will get better.

What that means is my time is not paid well yet. I need to get my profit up. I’m making a little profit, but not my target yet. I’ve got time to figure it out, so I’m not worried about it.

Even if you reasonably cut costs, dipping below $100 is a death sentence if you plan on selling long term.

If you are just trying to recoup costs, you can go lower.

If you want to turn a profit, less than $100 after recouping costs, taxes, etc. is not worth the time and energy.

 

[jdduffield]

Sorry this thread has gotten so far away from FV-1 talk, but hopefully there have been some helpful tidbits for you.

That okay. I love it! It is all related. And yes, this is great advice and food for thought.

 

[jdduffield]

Even if you reasonably cut costs, dipping below $100 is a death sentence if you plan on selling long term.

If you are just trying to recoup costs, you can go lower.

If you want to turn a profit, less than $100 after recouping costs, taxes, etc. is not worth the time and energy.

At $89 it sat there a week without any interest. The circuit I’m starting with is overly simple, which might have something to do with it. But also, being new, I may just need time to build that reputation and trust with the customer.

I’ll take your advice. My next circuit design will be more complex than the one I have now and I’ll ask $109-$129 depending on parts cost or sales promotions. I expect to start hitting target profit in 3 years. At least that feels like a reasonable goal.

 

[Stickman393]

I probably shouldn’t have said this was a question for “those of you who sell”. That probably sounded rude of me. My intent was not to exclude, but to get an answer from experience vs hypothetical. I’d love to hear your thoughts.

As far as selling… I figured I’d try selling and worst case scenario it doesn’t work and I get to give everything away as Christmas gifts. But honestly, I’m doing okay at the moment and believe it is going to get better with time.

As far as the FV1 stuff… Some of my favorite pedals are reverbs and delays that go beyond the PT2399, so I’ve been thinking of giving it a try. Plus I think I can get the hang of it based on current skills and passions.

I ended up getting the FV1 at a rate of $11.70. So assuming I can figure out how to program it and solder it, I doubt I’ll lose any money on sales. We’ll see. (I think I can add another $12 to the pedal price to balance it out.)

Aw shucks. I wasn't implying any rudeness. I was just having a little navel-gazy fun.

Though: hear me out.

Make your product like...ah...super fancy. I dunno. Get a little crazy with the packaging.

Then...hear me out...charge like, 1K.

Make your stuff all about exclusivity and waiting lists and mistique. Then maybe put a text statement on your pedals. Something like: "Kindly remember, as Archimedies said: bring me a lever, and a pivot on which to place it, and go fuck yourself with it."

Do a Louis Vuitton. Just charge the hell out of people.

 

[jdduffield]

Aw shucks. I wasn't implying any rudeness. I was just having a little navel-gazy fun.

Though: hear me out.

Make your product like...ah...super fancy. I dunno. Get a little crazy with the packaging.

Then...hear me out...charge like, 1K.

Make your stuff all about exclusivity and waiting lists and mistique. Then maybe put a text statement on your pedals. Something like: "Kindly remember, as Archimedies said: bring me a lever, and a pivot on which to place it, and go fuck yourself with it."

Do a Louis Vuitton. Just charge the hell out of people.

Yes, I must find my flair! Working on that too.

 

[Big Monk]

At $89 it sat there a week without any interest. The circuit I’m starting with is overly simple, which might have something to do with it. But also, being new, I may just need time to build that reputation and trust with the customer.

I’ll take your advice. My next circuit design will be more complex than the one I have now and I’ll ask $109-$129 depending on parts cost or sales promotions. I expect to start hitting target profit in 3 years. At least that feels like a reasonable goal.

I’m not looking to shame you at all but do you have images inside and out of what you are trying to sell?

We could help you establish a fair and conpetative price point if we can see what we’re working with.

 

[jdduffield]

I’m not looking to shame you at all but do you have images inside and out of what you are trying to sell?

We could help you establish a fair and conpetative price point if we can see what we’re working with.

Yes, it is a simple circuit. Electra topology with a few modifications. (Gotta start somewhere. It sounds great! A light single transistor overdrive until it hits the diodes at higher drive settings, which adds in a little asymmetrical fuzz-like drive.)

Short demo:

 

[jdduffield]

do you have images inside and out of what you are trying to sell?

The one I mentioned that would be more complex, possibly have an FV-1 chip in it, and aiming for $129, is not invented yet. I have the outside design started but subject to change. I’m thinking of calling it Zephryne … it would be a thicker drive (if possible, analog, maybe Rat-like) summed with an FV-1 effect patch (or 2-3 if I have a mode switch).

The “fire” knob would control drive gain and the “magic” knob would be like a shimmer, modulation, or lo-fi arpeggiated delay or something, not sure yet, that could be mixed into it.

 

[Big Monk]

Here’s the problem I think you may run into: This is a really bad time to be STARTING a pedal business.

Especially if you plan on doing anything remotely original.

The market is soft. People want something for nothing as a general rule in that type of market.

I won’t say I’m struggling but 2 years in and I have not truly broken even yet.

One of the hurdles, especially in this soft market, is one of attention span and recognition.

You ever look at analytics of your social media? What I find is that if I post a 1:30 video on IG, my followers may watch an average of 7 seconds of it.

Non-followers? They average 2 seconds of total watch time. That’s on a total of 90 seconds.

What does that mean?

If someone has to think too hard about what your controls do, they are looking elsewhere.

If someone can’t suss out what they are looking at by some aesthetic nods, they are looking elsewhere.

My general rule? I’m not a huge fan of it but calculate what you think it’s worth and immediately knock $20-$30 off.

Can you recoup your costs, including taxes, materials, packaging, etc. and make a $ amount you feel honors your time and a small profit?

If not, you have a few options:

1.) Raise the price: Never a good idea. Experience says we are already charging too much for 95% of the customer base.

2.) Reduce your costs: This include materials and your time.

The Electra is a simple circuit so it’s going to command simple circuit prices.

I think your graphics are clean and interesting but they don’t scream Electra in anyway.

How will someone who is looking for an Electra Distortion suss out that’s what you are selling?

In a sense that a rhetorical question. I struggle with this as well to the point where I’ve found either resorting to making nods toward trade dress or very literal names seems to help me establish to people what I’m selling.

For instance: What do you call your Fuzz Face to grab people?

The Pompeii is my flagship.

My cheaper Core Series revision coming out simplifies it further: Two Transistor English Fuzz.

Remember the comment about IG and how people watch?

If people know you, you have an average of 7 seconds to grab them.

If they don’t, you got 2 seconds to grab their attention.

What you have is not bad by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, other than maybe some tightening up of offboard wiring, that Sunday Driver is damn fine.

But you are fighting a war with people with attention spans of hyper active dogs.

 

[Stickman393]

Damn Monk-ie. Talking social media analytics and stuffs.

Here's the deal: everybody's on social media. Everybody's hawking their tuahs for a moment in the spotlight and some of that sweet, sweet cheddar.

Listen: selling pedals is like guerrilla warfare. You gotta toss a few boxes through windows like molotov cocktails.

That'll get ya free advertisement when the news is all like "who the hell is throwing...what are these...like...knobbed things through windows?"

Sure. You'll probably have to pay some folks for the damage. But that's a whole lot less than a TV commercial is these days.

Take it from me. A man who does not sell pedals, but has developed a whole mythology associated with his pedal brand that does not actually exist.

Some might say "oh, I get it. you're just doing that thing where you try to hype up a product before you go to market by making it unavailable" and I say: nope. Just really bad at business and life in general.

Edit:

Yeah. Don't take my advice. Its usually really, really bad.

 

[jdduffield]

You gotta toss a few boxes through windows like molotov cocktails.

Reminds me of the story of Wampler tossing that pedal onto Brad Paisley’s stage.

 

[jdduffield]

Here’s the problem I think you may run into: This is a really bad time to be STARTING a pedal business.

Especially if you plan on doing anything remotely original.

The market is soft. People want something for nothing as a general rule in that type of market.

I won’t say I’m struggling but 2 years in and I have not truly broken even yet.

One of the hurdles, especially in this soft market, is one of attention span and recognition.

You ever look at analytics of your social media? What I find is that if I post a 1:30 video on IG, my followers may watch an average of 7 seconds of it.

Non-followers? They average 2 seconds of total watch time. That’s on a total of 90 seconds.

What does that mean?

If someone has to think too hard about what your controls do, they are looking elsewhere.

If someone can’t suss out what they are looking at by some aesthetic nods, they are looking elsewhere.

My general rule? I’m not a huge fan of it but calculate what you think it’s worth and immediately knock $20-$30 off.

Can you recoup your costs, including taxes, materials, packaging, etc. and make a $ amount you feel honors your time and a small profit?

If not, you have a few options:

1.) Raise the price: Never a good idea. Experience says we are already charging too much for 95% of the customer base.

2.) Reduce your costs: This include materials and your time.

The Electra is a simple circuit so it’s going to command simple circuit prices.

I think your graphics are clean and interesting but they don’t scream Electra in anyway.

How will someone who is looking for an Electra Distortion suss out that’s what you are selling?

In a sense that a rhetorical question. I struggle with this as well to the point where I’ve found either resorting to making nods toward trade dress or very literal names seems to help me establish to people what I’m selling.

For instance: What do you call your Fuzz Face to grab people?

The Pompeii is my flagship.

My cheaper Core Series revision coming out simplifies it further: Two Transistor English Fuzz.

Remember the comment about IG and how people watch?

If people know you, you have an average of 7 seconds to grab them.

If they don’t, you got 2 seconds to grab their attention.

What you have is not bad by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, other than maybe some tightening up of offboard wiring, that Sunday Driver is damn fine.

But you are fighting a war with people with attention spans of hyper active dogs.

Thank you for the thorough response. There are some good take aways here. I’ve always thought the look-alike branding nods to classic products would be more of a turn off than a selling point. I personally gravitate toward more original artwork. But, maybe that differs from the norm. Maybe I could try it. It is good food for thought. I do like controls that are clear. With that in mind, I’m not sure if I’ll stick with “fire, magic” etc but will think on it.

I know the timing is bad for starting right now. I think the tariffs went into effect just as I started placing orders for parts. Plus, there are a lot of builders right now. My hope is to figure it out over 15 years. Slow and steady. And conversations like this will help me “figure it out” in time.

 

[Feral Feline]

Reminds me of the story of Wampler tossing that pedal onto Brad Paisley’s stage.

I had not heard of this story — What a shame Wampler missed Paisley's puss — shoulda used a brick, what a waste of a pedal.

Thank you for the thorough response. There are some good take aways here. I’ve always thought the look-alike branding nods to classic products would be more of a turn off than a selling point. I personally gravitate toward more original artwork. But, maybe that differs from the norm. Maybe I could try it. It is good food for thought. I do like controls that are clear. With that in mind, I’m not sure if I’ll stick with “fire, magic” etc but will think on it.

...

This!

While Monsieur Monk is trying to cultivate a specific clientele, I'm personally NOT attracted to something that apes the original so-called "classic" pedals. Indeed, it's a "turn off" for me.

I also think that anybody that wants/knows what an Electra is, can whip one up themselves — or have a friend do it. Of all my geetar-totin' fiends, eh friends, ie the ones that are gearhounds, wouldn't know an Electra from a Fuzz Face — just, "Does it sound cool? Yeah, it sounds different from this one." They might know the difference in sound, but not why/what makes it tick.

I got asked to build a Muff, lots of back&forth talk with me to ascertain what he wanted out of his own tailor-made Muff version — then the guy started talking about Fuzz Faces and Guv'nors/Blues Breakers — as if they were all closely related sounds. It went from concise to conflated confusion...

I would think that marketing your Electra as such would lower its value, if anything. Better to market the hell out of how it sounds — no need to obfuscate what it is based on, but no need to play that up in the marketing either.

As for control labels... some people get their knickers in a tight knot at control names like "pasteurise" and "cream" — if I were selling pedals, those people wouldn't be my target market. [For the people that can't figure out an unmonickered two-knob or even three-knob pedal using their ears, then perhaps they should forget pedals and stick to BCA.] "Fire" and "Magic" could be FUN (or cheesy, depending on context/graphic/etc). Use whatever labelling you think works best with your pedal, but for sure, if you want to sell lots to the masses you'll need to dumb down the nomenclature.




All the above from someone who's never sold a pedal, not even ever having flipped a commercial pedal. I've given away a few pedals, commercial and DIY, but never sold anything whatsoever. If I built pedals to sell, they'd be pedals I'D WANT TO BUY, so I'd probably go broke in no time.