Question About Selling

[Stickman393]

Speaking as a man who really only likes engaging in the idea of building a pedal brand, and doesn't really sell anything to anybody. Really.

My opinion here was not asked for, so I'll just kinda hang out here. Don't mind me.

 

[jdduffield]

Speaking as a man who really only likes engaging in the idea of building a pedal brand, and doesn't really sell anything to anybody. Really.

My opinion here was not asked for, so I'll just kinda hang out here. Don't mind me.

I probably shouldn’t have said this was a question for “those of you who sell”. That probably sounded rude of me. My intent was not to exclude, but to get an answer from experience vs hypothetical. I’d love to hear your thoughts.

As far as selling… I figured I’d try selling and worst case scenario it doesn’t work and I get to give everything away as Christmas gifts. But honestly, I’m doing okay at the moment and believe it is going to get better with time.

As far as the FV1 stuff… Some of my favorite pedals are reverbs and delays that go beyond the PT2399, so I’ve been thinking of giving it a try. Plus I think I can get the hang of it based on current skills and passions.

I ended up getting the FV1 at a rate of $11.70. So assuming I can figure out how to program it and solder it, I doubt I’ll lose any money on sales. We’ll see. (I think I can add another $12 to the pedal price to balance it out.)

 

[jdduffield]

I can speak from experience that people want the very best at the very cheapest.

It’s also an incredibly soft market so good luck selling onesey twosey DIY pedals at anything approaching $100 unless it’s absolutely impeccable inside and out.

I’m noticing that.

 

[jdduffield]

In a saturated market, and a soft one at that, you have to offer good sounds at the very cheapest price possible.

I’ve had to transistion to full SMD and cut costs at nearly every corner of the to sell 20+ at a time.

I am finishing up redesigning many of my offerings into a “Core” 125B line. The goal has been to reduce my build times and keep my same high quality builds and packaging.

I’d rather sell 30+ cheaper pedals than none at all.

I’ll be thinking of ways to keep cost reasonable. I enjoy the process of working with through hole soldering, so if I were to ever go full SMD, I’d probably still want to do a few the other way here and there just because I enjoy it so much.

I was playing with “price” on Reverb, thinking $89 was a bargain. There was no interest until it hit $65. That seems to be the sweet spot. I was thinking it was because I’m not established yet, or just that this season is slow and a wave will come with the holidays. It sounds more like everyone is experiencing this… that the market is like that now. Hopefully it will get better.

What that means is my time is not paid well yet. I need to get my profit up. I’m making a little profit, but not my target yet. I’ve got time to figure it out, so I’m not worried about it.

I should add that my venturing into the FV1 stuff will hopefully help with that first part, giving the quality of product a lift! It is an experiment at this point. If I have to tuck tail and go back to the overdrive and fuzz circuits, that’s okay with me.

 

[vigilante398]

The goal has been to reduce my build times and keep my same high quality builds and packaging.

This is the way.

My builds are the same if not better quality than they were when I started selling, but I can build them way faster now.

Once you're famous you can get away with spending a week on every pedal and charging accordingly, but as has been said before, until you have a reputation that justifies a higher price, you're going to have to sell cheap.

I have a friend that releases all new products with a 25-40% "discount" to start building interest, then as soon as sales are consistent and feedback is good, he brings the prices up to where he actually wants them to be.

Sorry this thread has gotten so far away from FV-1 talk, but hopefully there have been some helpful tidbits for you.

 

[jdduffield]

Sorry this thread has gotten so far away from FV-1 talk, but hopefully there have been some helpful tidbits for you.

That okay. I love it! It is all related. And yes, this is great advice and food for thought.

 

[jdduffield]

Even if you reasonably cut costs, dipping below $100 is a death sentence if you plan on selling long term.

If you are just trying to recoup costs, you can go lower.

If you want to turn a profit, less than $100 after recouping costs, taxes, etc. is not worth the time and energy.

At $89 it sat there a week without any interest. The circuit I’m starting with is overly simple, which might have something to do with it. But also, being new, I may just need time to build that reputation and trust with the customer.

I’ll take your advice. My next circuit design will be more complex than the one I have now and I’ll ask $109-$129 depending on parts cost or sales promotions. I expect to start hitting target profit in 3 years. At least that feels like a reasonable goal.

 

[Stickman393]

I probably shouldn’t have said this was a question for “those of you who sell”. That probably sounded rude of me. My intent was not to exclude, but to get an answer from experience vs hypothetical. I’d love to hear your thoughts.

As far as selling… I figured I’d try selling and worst case scenario it doesn’t work and I get to give everything away as Christmas gifts. But honestly, I’m doing okay at the moment and believe it is going to get better with time.

As far as the FV1 stuff… Some of my favorite pedals are reverbs and delays that go beyond the PT2399, so I’ve been thinking of giving it a try. Plus I think I can get the hang of it based on current skills and passions.

I ended up getting the FV1 at a rate of $11.70. So assuming I can figure out how to program it and solder it, I doubt I’ll lose any money on sales. We’ll see. (I think I can add another $12 to the pedal price to balance it out.)

Aw shucks. I wasn't implying any rudeness. I was just having a little navel-gazy fun.

Though: hear me out.

Make your product like...ah...super fancy. I dunno. Get a little crazy with the packaging.

Then...hear me out...charge like, 1K.

Make your stuff all about exclusivity and waiting lists and mistique. Then maybe put a text statement on your pedals. Something like: "Kindly remember, as Archimedies said: bring me a lever, and a pivot on which to place it, and go fuck yourself with it."

Do a Louis Vuitton. Just charge the hell out of people.

 

[jdduffield]

Aw shucks. I wasn't implying any rudeness. I was just having a little navel-gazy fun.

Though: hear me out.

Make your product like...ah...super fancy. I dunno. Get a little crazy with the packaging.

Then...hear me out...charge like, 1K.

Make your stuff all about exclusivity and waiting lists and mistique. Then maybe put a text statement on your pedals. Something like: "Kindly remember, as Archimedies said: bring me a lever, and a pivot on which to place it, and go fuck yourself with it."

Do a Louis Vuitton. Just charge the hell out of people.

Yes, I must find my flair! Working on that too.

 

[jdduffield]

I’m not looking to shame you at all but do you have images inside and out of what you are trying to sell?

We could help you establish a fair and conpetative price point if we can see what we’re working with.

Yes, it is a simple circuit. Electra topology with a few modifications. (Gotta start somewhere. It sounds great! A light single transistor overdrive until it hits the diodes at higher drive settings, which adds in a little asymmetrical fuzz-like drive.)

Short demo:

 

[jdduffield]

do you have images inside and out of what you are trying to sell?

The one I mentioned that would be more complex, possibly have an FV-1 chip in it, and aiming for $129, is not invented yet. I have the outside design started but subject to change. I’m thinking of calling it Zephryne … it would be a thicker drive (if possible, analog, maybe Rat-like) summed with an FV-1 effect patch (or 2-3 if I have a mode switch).

The “fire” knob would control drive gain and the “magic” knob would be like a shimmer, modulation, or lo-fi arpeggiated delay or something, not sure yet, that could be mixed into it.

 

[Stickman393]

Damn Monk-ie. Talking social media analytics and stuffs.

Here's the deal: everybody's on social media. Everybody's hawking their tuahs for a moment in the spotlight and some of that sweet, sweet cheddar.

Listen: selling pedals is like guerrilla warfare. You gotta toss a few boxes through windows like molotov cocktails.

That'll get ya free advertisement when the news is all like "who the hell is throwing...what are these...like...knobbed things through windows?"

Sure. You'll probably have to pay some folks for the damage. But that's a whole lot less than a TV commercial is these days.

Take it from me. A man who does not sell pedals, but has developed a whole mythology associated with his pedal brand that does not actually exist.

Some might say "oh, I get it. you're just doing that thing where you try to hype up a product before you go to market by making it unavailable" and I say: nope. Just really bad at business and life in general.

Edit:

Yeah. Don't take my advice. Its usually really, really bad.

 

[jdduffield]

You gotta toss a few boxes through windows like molotov cocktails.

Reminds me of the story of Wampler tossing that pedal onto Brad Paisley’s stage.

 

[jdduffield]

Here’s the problem I think you may run into: This is a really bad time to be STARTING a pedal business.

Especially if you plan on doing anything remotely original.

The market is soft. People want something for nothing as a general rule in that type of market.

I won’t say I’m struggling but 2 years in and I have not truly broken even yet.

One of the hurdles, especially in this soft market, is one of attention span and recognition.

You ever look at analytics of your social media? What I find is that if I post a 1:30 video on IG, my followers may watch an average of 7 seconds of it.

Non-followers? They average 2 seconds of total watch time. That’s on a total of 90 seconds.

What does that mean?

If someone has to think too hard about what your controls do, they are looking elsewhere.

If someone can’t suss out what they are looking at by some aesthetic nods, they are looking elsewhere.

My general rule? I’m not a huge fan of it but calculate what you think it’s worth and immediately knock $20-$30 off.

Can you recoup your costs, including taxes, materials, packaging, etc. and make a $ amount you feel honors your time and a small profit?

If not, you have a few options:

1.) Raise the price: Never a good idea. Experience says we are already charging too much for 95% of the customer base.

2.) Reduce your costs: This include materials and your time.

The Electra is a simple circuit so it’s going to command simple circuit prices.

I think your graphics are clean and interesting but they don’t scream Electra in anyway.

How will someone who is looking for an Electra Distortion suss out that’s what you are selling?

In a sense that a rhetorical question. I struggle with this as well to the point where I’ve found either resorting to making nods toward trade dress or very literal names seems to help me establish to people what I’m selling.

For instance: What do you call your Fuzz Face to grab people?

The Pompeii is my flagship.

My cheaper Core Series revision coming out simplifies it further: Two Transistor English Fuzz.

Remember the comment about IG and how people watch?

If people know you, you have an average of 7 seconds to grab them.

If they don’t, you got 2 seconds to grab their attention.

What you have is not bad by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, other than maybe some tightening up of offboard wiring, that Sunday Driver is damn fine.

But you are fighting a war with people with attention spans of hyper active dogs.

Thank you for the thorough response. There are some good take aways here. I’ve always thought the look-alike branding nods to classic products would be more of a turn off than a selling point. I personally gravitate toward more original artwork. But, maybe that differs from the norm. Maybe I could try it. It is good food for thought. I do like controls that are clear. With that in mind, I’m not sure if I’ll stick with “fire, magic” etc but will think on it.

I know the timing is bad for starting right now. I think the tariffs went into effect just as I started placing orders for parts. Plus, there are a lot of builders right now. My hope is to figure it out over 15 years. Slow and steady. And conversations like this will help me “figure it out” in time.

 

[Feral Feline]

Reminds me of the story of Wampler tossing that pedal onto Brad Paisley’s stage.

I had not heard of this story — What a shame Wampler missed Paisley's puss — shoulda used a brick, what a waste of a pedal.

Thank you for the thorough response. There are some good take aways here. I’ve always thought the look-alike branding nods to classic products would be more of a turn off than a selling point. I personally gravitate toward more original artwork. But, maybe that differs from the norm. Maybe I could try it. It is good food for thought. I do like controls that are clear. With that in mind, I’m not sure if I’ll stick with “fire, magic” etc but will think on it.

...

This!

While Monsieur Monk is trying to cultivate a specific clientele, I'm personally NOT attracted to something that apes the original so-called "classic" pedals. Indeed, it's a "turn off" for me.

I also think that anybody that wants/knows what an Electra is, can whip one up themselves — or have a friend do it. Of all my geetar-totin' fiends, eh friends, ie the ones that are gearhounds, wouldn't know an Electra from a Fuzz Face — just, "Does it sound cool? Yeah, it sounds different from this one." They might know the difference in sound, but not why/what makes it tick.

I got asked to build a Muff, lots of back&forth talk with me to ascertain what he wanted out of his own tailor-made Muff version — then the guy started talking about Fuzz Faces and Guv'nors/Blues Breakers — as if they were all closely related sounds. It went from concise to conflated confusion...

I would think that marketing your Electra as such would lower its value, if anything. Better to market the hell out of how it sounds — no need to obfuscate what it is based on, but no need to play that up in the marketing either.

As for control labels... some people get their knickers in a tight knot at control names like "pasteurise" and "cream" — if I were selling pedals, those people wouldn't be my target market. [For the people that can't figure out an unmonickered two-knob or even three-knob pedal using their ears, then perhaps they should forget pedals and stick to BCA.] "Fire" and "Magic" could be FUN (or cheesy, depending on context/graphic/etc). Use whatever labelling you think works best with your pedal, but for sure, if you want to sell lots to the masses you'll need to dumb down the nomenclature.




All the above from someone who's never sold a pedal, not even ever having flipped a commercial pedal. I've given away a few pedals, commercial and DIY, but never sold anything whatsoever. If I built pedals to sell, they'd be pedals I'D WANT TO BUY, so I'd probably go broke in no time.

 

[spi]

The Electra is a simple circuit so it’s going to command simple circuit prices.

How will someone who is looking for an Electra Distortion suss out that’s what you are selling?

Agree with all the stuff you said but this point I'm not sure of.

I think most people don't know or care what an Electra distortion is, nor do they shop specifically for one.

Lovepedal has a lot of success at selling these circuits at high prices, and from what I gather on mainstream guitar forums, a lot of people believe these are amp simulators.

I don't see any mention of Electra on the Speaker Cranker page, but I do see how "notes will blossom and bloom with rich harmonics and responsive, tube-like sag"

If the circuit does what people want I don't think they care what kind of circuit it is. And I don't know if there's any correlation between price and circuit if your marketing can overcome it.

 

[jdduffield]

No one in this thread will agree on some of the minutia like copying trade dress, labelling controls, promotional language, etc. but those rules above will set you on the right track.

Well, regardless of what others think I really appreciate the advise!

As far as the recipe is concerned, I still have work to do, especially on 2 and 3. I can do it though. I’m building up and stocking inventory and working on packaging ideas. (Still brand new to this. I built my first kit only a couple years ago. But I have time to try things and see what works.)

As far as the controls and branding are concerned, I can see both sides. In fact, I have some Behringer and Warm Audio stuff in my studio. (Love the WASP!) But I also have some whimsical and artistically original stuff. (Love Walrus’ art.)

I will say that there is truth to users wanting what is intuitive. In my day job, I’m a front end web developer, and have learned the value of not keeping the user guessing. Maybe with pedals I can experiment with a middle ground, like the Thneed, for example, has the “unless” switch. Like, what is that? But the other knobs are clearly labeled intuitively. (It’s fun though. I like it!)

One thing to consider is I’m not trying to go big time with it. I’m happy to build small batches and keep up with my bills, support my family, and keep the business running. I have no plans of making it my full time job right now, just a side hustle for now and then someday retire into making it my main source of income above the retirement checks. Something where I work on it from home for 30-40 hours a week instead of taking a job at the post office or something.

 

[falco_femoralis]

Well, what I do is build pedals for myself so I can achieve the ultimate toan, and sometimes I'll make some circuits I know will sell well. I make each one high quality and I don't half ass anything. Then, if I'm bored with a pedal or it didn't work with my setup, I can list it and sell them as if they were meant for market.

But even then, I try to know my audience. Most people who are willing to buy a DIY pedal are either doing it because they're brave or the pedal is cheap. But I always check the value of similar pedals on the market, and I price mine accordingly, depending what is available and the quality of my pedal vs others. Some of them sell for much more than others because of this. Now, I'm talking about clones here of course.

It's difficult trying to value an original design because there is nothing to compare it to. Both the buyer and seller have to come up with a price out of thin air. That means it's up to you as the seller to explain what the pedal will do for the buyer. Tell them how it will make their tone feel or how it will sound. It's even harder to do this with an electra circuit as they are so ubiquitous and unoriginal.

Look at how other companies got their starts - modifying existing designs. This way, a buyer can get the best of both worlds - something they are familiar with, and something a little extra.

Either way, I wouldn't fret too much about the short term. Perseverance is the key to getting the price you want. I'll leave a pedal on the market for at least a month before reevaluating its price point. And even then, I might not touch it. You are just waiting for the right buyer to come along and sometimes it takes time for that audience to materialize.

 

[JTEX]

I admire the small one-man-show builders who manage to make pedals and sell them into such a saturated market and somehow still pay themselves fairly for their work. I briefly made pedals and got out of it when I saw how much work they were -- even though they sold well at a price well above the average. I think one thing small builders can do better than the big firms is offering a direct communication line with the end user, taking special requests, questions, basically being flexible, easily reachable, and of course, knowledgeable about what you build. See where the users are (forums, social media groups etc) and participate in that. Maybe make some good demos, a decent website, show some sort of track record in building interesting stuff. Establish trust, basically.

 

[sticky1138]

I consistently sell pedals at prices that put me in the same range as all the mainstream boutique builders (pre-Reverb fees and taxes, that is). If your main goal is to make money, the trick is to focus on builds in the sweet spot where rarity, demand and low parts count intersect, as others have mentioned. Unobtanium '60s silicon fuzzes and RATs with flashy mods do well for me.

It took me a couple years of laborious reputation building to make it to this bracket, first selling in the sub-$100 range to build up reviews and a following. Many of my customers now are repeat buyers familiar with my (alleged) quality and customer service, and that's how I'm able to charge as much as I do.

That being said, even at what I consider pretty good (i.e. high) prices for unbranded clones, it's not a viable "career" at this scale when factoring all the time that goes into each sale. It's just a side gig for me because a) I'm addicted to building, b) beer and/or partscaster money, and c) It's hella fun. But it is also, to an equal degree, a huge pain in the ass.