No they're not. They are preamp + poweramp emulations. Hence my question: can I drive the poweramp section of any of these circuits with a REAL tube preamp and use a speaker emulator after the poweramp emulator without impedance problems? If so, would a buffer be a good idea akd a fix?
Analog Tube Power amp simulator: studying possibilities
- Thread starter cris_mas
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Feral Feline
Well-known member
Keyword = "emulations".
They don't have power-amp sections.
So you want a "REAL tube preamp" > Mofeta/Thunderbird > speaker emulator...
I don't see a problem with that. A buffer shouldn't be a problem, neither the Mofeta nor T-bird are like a Fuzz Face.
Have you looked at the Mofeta and T-bird schematics to determine which part is emulating the amplifiers?
I'm guessing for the PPCB Mofeta, the power-amp emulation comes after the tone-stack at C15, but then you lose a big part of what makes the Mofeta sound like it does.
For the T-bird, I couldn't say what's "power-amp", to my eyes it looks like the whole circuit is part and parcel.
What sort of speaker emulator were you thinking of using?
I'll hope someone more knowledgeable steps forward and hopefully answers conclusively, as I'm just but a lowly padawan.
They don't have power-amp sections.
So you want a "REAL tube preamp" > Mofeta/Thunderbird > speaker emulator...
I don't see a problem with that. A buffer shouldn't be a problem, neither the Mofeta nor T-bird are like a Fuzz Face.
Have you looked at the Mofeta and T-bird schematics to determine which part is emulating the amplifiers?
I'm guessing for the PPCB Mofeta, the power-amp emulation comes after the tone-stack at C15, but then you lose a big part of what makes the Mofeta sound like it does.
For the T-bird, I couldn't say what's "power-amp", to my eyes it looks like the whole circuit is part and parcel.
What sort of speaker emulator were you thinking of using?
I'll hope someone more knowledgeable steps forward and hopefully answers conclusively, as I'm just but a lowly padawan.
temol
Well-known member
These parts aren't strictly power amplifiers. They only simulate certain aspects of PA "sound" and behavior.
For me there is a difference between listening to a simulation and playing/feeling one.
A friend of mine plays with a UA plexi pedal and an active Fender FRFR monitor. I like it when he plays it. I need that under the fingers feeling.
I like this video of the Wampler Pedalhead but I am afraid the latency 0,75 ms would still be a problem for me.
I have a Red box speaker simulator but because of the noise it produces it is collecting cm's of dust
A friend of mine plays with a UA plexi pedal and an active Fender FRFR monitor. I like it when he plays it. I need that under the fingers feeling.
I like this video of the Wampler Pedalhead but I am afraid the latency 0,75 ms would still be a problem for me.
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Do you play with your cab tied to your head? 0.75ms is the equivalent of 8 inches/200mm distance. No one can perceive that.
Now that's latency. Equal to about 396.4 miles or 638 kilometers
Thanks for your reply. I'm aware they aren't strictly power amplifiers, hence my question
What I'm trying to achieve is to build a box into which I can plug a real tube preamp at the input and a mixer/soundcard/SS amp/FRFR monitor at the output abd make it sound an d feel like a tube amp
I've tested a setup consisting of a tube preamp into Deadastronaut Astrosim and it sounds quite good but the feeling I have is it lacks the dynamics a tube amp has. When I play soft it responds but when hitting the strings hard it goes "thin". My guess is I need a poweramp emulation to achieve or get closer to that "feeling" (maybe I'm wrong).
So I was wondering if the Thunderbird or the Mofeta (since they include a poweramp section emulation) would serve that purpose.
Any input is very welcome and appreciated.
Cheers
Sono
Why would a solid state pedal based on a solid state amp with some "power amp emulation" which just means they threw a weird gain stage running transistors at 18 volts make it feel like a tube amp? (Referring to the mofeta)
No it won't help. It might sound good.
No it won't help. It might sound good.
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Robert
Reverse Engineer
pbrommer
Well-known member
Man, that is impressive a switch can roll from a 25W tube to a 40W tube.
/scribbles notes furiously
I've already stated a couple of times thta it's based on a REAL TUBE PREAMP.
The preamp has two 12ax7s working at 330VDC...
temol
Well-known member
Good luck..make it sound an d feel like a tube amp
This can be interpreted in different ways. No bottom end? No punch?
If it's a tonal issue, maybe try graphic EQ?
Or something like Presence and Resonance from Bajaman? https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?t=29369
Or maybe a Simplifier? https://forum.pedalpcb.com/threads/ly-rock-tone-monster-clone-dsm-humboldt-simplifier.20668/
Or..
Power Amp Emulator PAE-2
PRICE: $264.95 USD It's common knowledge among practically all musicians that tube amps - particularly the power amp section - are more reactive and dynamic than solid-state amps. They compress, crunch and produce harmonics in ways solid-state amps simply cannot. In comparison, solid-state amps...
axiomeffects.com
BOSS - IR-2 | Amp & Cabinet
IR-2: Amp & Cabinet - Zabierz Swój Unikalny Dźwięk Wszędzie
www.boss.info
Thanks a lot for your suggestions, Temol
I know....but we gotta keep trying!!
Yes, more like no punch, like the note's attack gets shattered/compressed. Not easy to explain
https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?t=29369
https://forum.pedalpcb.com/threads/ly-rock-tone-monster-clone-dsm-humboldt-simplifier.20668/
I also realized that I missed your post on the first page of THIS thread where you mention many Bajaman circuits that all seem to include a poweramp simulation...
Also, on the thread you linked about Bajaman's Presence and Resonance circuit, there's a link to Bajaman's Reactor. After also reading that thread I've got a couple of questions that maybe you could clarify for me
- The poweramp sims on the Bajaman circuits (Humble, TW, HiWatt, 5e3, etc) are they the same as the P&R circuit, or more like the Reactor, or a completely different approach?
- Are the Thunderbird or the Mofeta power stages any different or the same concept?
- You seem to have built and heard a few of these circuits. Which one would you recommend to build and test, using a tube preamp and Deadasronaut's Astrosim as a speaker emulation into a mixer?
Again, thanks a lot for all the information, the links, your time and help
Cheers
Sono
Good luck..
I know....but we gotta keep trying!!
Yes, more like no punch, like the note's attack gets shattered/compressed. Not easy to explain
https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?t=29369
I did try the Simplifier but TBH it sounds a bit sterile to me... at least I couldn't make it "sound"...
https://forum.pedalpcb.com/threads/ly-rock-tone-monster-clone-dsm-humboldt-simplifier.20668/
Has this been traced at all or is there a schematic for something similar? I'd rather build my own boxOr..
Power Amp Emulator PAE-2
PRICE: $264.95 USD It's common knowledge among practically all musicians that tube amps - particularly the power amp section - are more reactive and dynamic than solid-state amps. They compress, crunch and produce harmonics in ways solid-state amps simply cannot. In comparison, solid-state amps...
Am I mistaken or these are digital units? As a building hobbyist, I'd rather stay away from digital (at least for now hehe)BOSS - IR-2 | Amp & Cabinet
IR-2: Amp & Cabinet - Zabierz Swój Unikalny Dźwięk Wszędzie
I just read through that thread and that Bajaman circuit sounds (no pun intended) quite interesting and promising actually.
I also realized that I missed your post on the first page of THIS thread where you mention many Bajaman circuits that all seem to include a poweramp simulation...
Also, on the thread you linked about Bajaman's Presence and Resonance circuit, there's a link to Bajaman's Reactor. After also reading that thread I've got a couple of questions that maybe you could clarify for me
- The poweramp sims on the Bajaman circuits (Humble, TW, HiWatt, 5e3, etc) are they the same as the P&R circuit, or more like the Reactor, or a completely different approach?
- Are the Thunderbird or the Mofeta power stages any different or the same concept?
- You seem to have built and heard a few of these circuits. Which one would you recommend to build and test, using a tube preamp and Deadasronaut's Astrosim as a speaker emulation into a mixer?
Again, thanks a lot for all the information, the links, your time and help
Cheers
Sono
It seems I got mixed up and thought the mofeta was based on the beta lead for some reason. However the tube feel is generally regarded as coming from the power amp. So if the tube feel is coming from the power amp then your tube preamp won't give it especially if your tube preamp is not doing it for you already. And I don't think that whatever power amp emulation circuit in the pedal is actually gonna do the job. Maybe I'm wrong. Have funI've already stated a couple of times thta it's based on a REAL TUBE PREAMP.
The preamp has two 12ax7s working at 330VDC...
anevilspar7an
Active member
I'm actually going to suggest also looking at tube powered DIs. There is a company that does diy boards for a couple projects that post here. The site is called Conspiracy to Commit Electronics, give them a look to see if it's something that could work.
JohnnyCreepy
Well-known member
Uneducated guess would be:Yes, more like no punch, like the note's attack gets shattered/compressed. Not easy to explain
Low power strum = less ac mV getting into circuit and circuit clips in a behaved way resulting amplifying signal toward the output
High power strum = more signal strength to input, grid/base/(gate?) blocking happening and there’s just too much clipping going on so signal chokes to wasp buzz
Solution could be attentuating AC signal between amplifying/clipping circuit stages?
Well, actually I think you're right and wrong
In Marshall style topologies the poweramp has an important part on color, texture, distortion etc. Fender topologies, due to their headroom are more transparent.
I also agree with you about tube emulation is not going to be like a tube amp but I'm just trying to get as close as possible. At least trying to get far from that "line-out" sensation as much as possible, if you know what I mean
Actually that's probably not a bad idea at all, especially for the DI Output part. Thanks for your suggestion
That seems to make sense, but where? I mean, that's probably not happening in the tube preamp, so would that be in the speaker sim part?
Thanks to all for your help and ideas
JohnnyCreepy
Well-known member
Either trace the signal with oscilloscope to see waveform changing or audio probe to see where signal loses it strength?That seems to make sense, but where? I mean, that's probably not happening in the tube preamp, so would that be in the speaker sim part?
Thanks to all for your help and ideas
Could you share preamp schematic?
Edit. Looked astrosims schematic. 1M/470K divider before IC and some EQd feedback part to make the amp simulation going there too. I’d try replacing 470k resistor with 1M pot or add 500k pot before 470k resistor to see what it does.
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