coltonius
Well-known member
At least you’re honest.I just don’t like Josh.
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Are there many JHS stompboxes based on other circuits from the diy community ?
- Thread starter eh là bas ma
- Start date
Idk if I’d call the pantheon a PoT ripoff… more changes from PoT to Pantheon than from BB to PoT, (the way the high-gain switch works, type of diodes, the bass control circuit, the op amp boost at the end). They had a blog post when it came out explaining where it fit among different BB types, with very high praise for the KoT, so that was my first impression of it.
But my comment was about body of work, not zeroing in on individual pedals. Wampler, walrus, EHX, EQD I think get a pass on copy / tweaked circuits because they have a reputation of originality. You make fair points about other companies, but I do understand what Benny is saying about how JHS’s persona as a truth teller to the average player plays into the eye roll.
I’m not saying it’s all fair, just trying to put words around it. I want to be open though, the PG-14 seems interesting as one example, the mid boost into the jfet drive (not sure if the jfet drive section is borrowed from anything specific).
But my comment was about body of work, not zeroing in on individual pedals. Wampler, walrus, EHX, EQD I think get a pass on copy / tweaked circuits because they have a reputation of originality. You make fair points about other companies, but I do understand what Benny is saying about how JHS’s persona as a truth teller to the average player plays into the eye roll.
I’m not saying it’s all fair, just trying to put words around it. I want to be open though, the PG-14 seems interesting as one example, the mid boost into the jfet drive (not sure if the jfet drive section is borrowed from anything specific).
eh là bas ma
Well-known member
Wampler is clear about the pantheon circuit, no direct reference to a brand, but at least there are the words "Blues Breaker" and "King" that can give us a pretty good idea about the inspiration.
https://www.wamplerpedals.com/products/distortion-overdrive/pantheon-overdrive/
Have a look at JHS Morning Glory :
JHS Pedals, Kansas City USA— Morning Glory V4
www.jhspedals.info
No mention whatsoever of the original design, no tips... You just have to look for the real info yourself, on forums.
I guess it's not very fair for the original designers. More importantly for most players and customers, it's not fair to be kept in the dark.
They're even trying to convince you that you need an extra accessory, the Red Remote... We're so used to this kind of commercial solicitation in everyday's life that it may appear normal, but it's not compliant with "good morals" as mentioned in the article 6 of the civil code (fr). I have met drug dealers who had a softer touch.
Most guitar players would like to know what they are buying and they would like to understand as much as possible about the stompboxes they are using. Trade secrets can only do some good for a few people, on the other hand, transparency and common knowledge are good for everyone...
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eh là bas ma
Well-known member
Very clear and excellent point.
coltonius
Well-known member
I think much of what you’ve said is a stretch. First, you’ve dismissed the Wampler example out of hand because they make vague allusions to the Prince of Tone, which is being produced and is available on a regular basis. Your assumption is that all consumers share the same desire to know circuit origins and they’ll necessarily make the connection. I remember when I first got into pedals, then shortly after joined the DIY community and realized that 3 different overdrives on my board were just modified Tubescreamers.Wampler is clear about the pantheon circuit, no direct reference to a brand, but at least there are the words "Blues Breaker" and "King" that can give us a pretty good idea about the inspiration.
https://www.wamplerpedals.com/products/distortion-overdrive/pantheon-overdrive/
Have a look at JHS Morning Glory :
JHS Pedals, Kansas City USA— Morning Glory V4
No mention whatsoever of the original design, no tips... You just have to look for the real info yourself, on forums.
I guess it's not very fair for the original designers. More importantly for most players and customers, it's not fair to be kept in the dark.
They're even trying to convince you that you need an extra accessory, the Red Remote... We're so used to this kind of commercial solicitation in everyday's life that it may appear normal, but it's not compliant with "good morals" as mentioned in the article 6 of the civil code (fr).
Most guitar players would like to know what they are buying and they would like to understand as much as possible about the stompboxes they are using. Trade secrets can only do some good for a few people, on the other hand, transparency and common knowledge are good for everyone...
Second, I can’t and won’t defend JHS’ marketing of the Morning Glory. In fact, I even said they bill it as a transparent, low gain overdrive without a reference to the BB circuit. I also said that nobody ever brings it up when talking about their circuit robbing. What irks me is that JHS constantly becomes the constant whipping boy when this type of discussion is brought up, when they are not the only perpetrators.
Finally, companies exist to make money, so the accessory (Red Remote) is a total red herring. The RR features are available on a toggle for those who don’t want to buy the accessory; it’s not like you bought a car and have to pay extra for the key to turn it on.
I hate that I’m in a position where it looks like I’m defending JHS when I’m simply stating that nuance and context are required- if you want to criticize them, have at it! By all accounts, there’s plenty of material- including Josh’s personal support for problematic institutions (which I do take issue with). I just feel this discussion has been mired in the same talking points since the mid-2010s and hasn’t advanced much beyond that.
eh là bas ma
Well-known member
I am sorry, I just realized with the Lizard Queen thread that JHS had only a few original designs. I always assumed most of their circuits (as well as other brands) were original, because of law suits and such.
I recently built the Crunch Captain and it made me realize from where my Angry Charles build has its roots. I prefer the Crunch box, so it got me a bit suspicious. I am not trying to criticize for the fun of it, I am just trying to understand how it works.
You're saying this is known since "mid 2010", and i am surprised.
I have been interacting on two or three stompboxes forums, and never saw this topic appear in the last three years. Maybe it has been discussed, I might have missed it, I guess we can't read everything....
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coltonius
Well-known member
All good, amigo. When it comes to circuit knowledge, I am leagues behind many of the guys here. We all have our niche little pockets of knowledge.
eh là bas ma
Well-known member
I never heard about that, may I ask what are you referring to ?
In my humble opinion, that's a stretch, or at least a big shortcut. I know that's not what you meant, but it could imply that as long as you are making money, every mistakes made in the process are justified.
I am sure there are many different ways to look at it, but I'd rather say that good companies exist to serve a purpose aligned with the common good. Bad companies are those which only exists for money, and they are often responsible for all sort of bad consequences, including destroying the environment... I mean just making money can't be enough, otherwise it gets quickly dangerous. Money is supposed to be a mean, not an end, at least in the big economical theories.
This point might look slightly off-topic, but I think it could be part of this conversation. The JHS economic model certainly has an impact on their work.
I don't know if there are shareholders and such, but i am sure they are somehow influenced by the dominant ideology, and it's helpful to consider it in order to understand what's happening, why they do what they're doing.
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Fama
Well-known member
I'm still a newcomer in the pedal DIY community, but here's my take.
Wampler is pretty forward about what his pedals are based on. For example here
he describes it as a mix between the Blues Breaker and the Prince of Tone. I think he's very much above the board about this sort of stuff.
At this point it's also good to differentiate between the sales pitches and what the creators actually say about the pedals. For example the Mad Professor Fire Red Fuzz is described as "The FRF is not another variation of a classic fuzz design but a unique pedal with its own character and extremely versatile Tone control.". I'm not good enough yet to determine what it is, but all the comments I've read online basically say it's a Big Muff variant.
I've never heard anyone complain about Mad Professor copying someone else's circuits. So I can excuse not mentioning the circuits on the actual sales page meant for your average guitar player who hasn't delved deep into pedals - they might get the wrong image if you say it's based on XYZ since a lot of them do not understand how few different original circuits there are in the end.
But JHS (like Wampler) has a Youtube channel that is about dispelling myths and diving deep into history of pedals, saying which one is based on what else and so on. This is a sort of space where you would expect more frank talk about what the circuits come from outside of just sales/PR speech, since it's more for enthusiasts who know and understand more.
In the latest Lizard Queen livestream he also mentioned how octave fuzzes usually work and then said how the Lizard Queen avoids doing that and that it's a "unique circuit". I haven't heard of anyone else using the Push Me, Pull You configuration in a pedal, not to mention both Bazz Fuzz into a Push Me, Pull You (there was a post on FSB though with that exact combination), so technically it's a unique circuit. But I guess the people who are outraged are angry because he should be better about stuff like this. Or at least that's the expectation.
He's not really any worse than other pedal companies (most of who don't disclose anything, or like Mythos whose Golden Fleece is a 170€ Elektra). But with his reputation as a historian, a lot of people have the expectation that he should be more outright about his own designs, like he is about other people's designs. And it's disappointing when he is not. Plus he has done it multiple times now, with the SuperBolt being a very notable example. I guess people assign some sort of malice to it - he's open about other people's pedals being clones or developments on earlier circuits, but obscures his own. I'm not sure if it's necessarily malicious, tbh, but it is a bit annoying.
Wampler is pretty forward about what his pedals are based on. For example here
At this point it's also good to differentiate between the sales pitches and what the creators actually say about the pedals. For example the Mad Professor Fire Red Fuzz is described as "The FRF is not another variation of a classic fuzz design but a unique pedal with its own character and extremely versatile Tone control.". I'm not good enough yet to determine what it is, but all the comments I've read online basically say it's a Big Muff variant.
I've never heard anyone complain about Mad Professor copying someone else's circuits. So I can excuse not mentioning the circuits on the actual sales page meant for your average guitar player who hasn't delved deep into pedals - they might get the wrong image if you say it's based on XYZ since a lot of them do not understand how few different original circuits there are in the end.
But JHS (like Wampler) has a Youtube channel that is about dispelling myths and diving deep into history of pedals, saying which one is based on what else and so on. This is a sort of space where you would expect more frank talk about what the circuits come from outside of just sales/PR speech, since it's more for enthusiasts who know and understand more.
In the latest Lizard Queen livestream he also mentioned how octave fuzzes usually work and then said how the Lizard Queen avoids doing that and that it's a "unique circuit". I haven't heard of anyone else using the Push Me, Pull You configuration in a pedal, not to mention both Bazz Fuzz into a Push Me, Pull You (there was a post on FSB though with that exact combination), so technically it's a unique circuit. But I guess the people who are outraged are angry because he should be better about stuff like this. Or at least that's the expectation.
He's not really any worse than other pedal companies (most of who don't disclose anything, or like Mythos whose Golden Fleece is a 170€ Elektra). But with his reputation as a historian, a lot of people have the expectation that he should be more outright about his own designs, like he is about other people's designs. And it's disappointing when he is not. Plus he has done it multiple times now, with the SuperBolt being a very notable example. I guess people assign some sort of malice to it - he's open about other people's pedals being clones or developments on earlier circuits, but obscures his own. I'm not sure if it's necessarily malicious, tbh, but it is a bit annoying.
eh là bas ma
Well-known member
I think i can see some kind of CEO dilemma : Would you rather have some people disappointed by your lack of transparency, or people disappointed by the lack of innovation ?
It's higly possible that JHS knew that his circuit would be quickly traced by the diy community. This dilemma probably came to their minds. These are some deliberate choices.
For many workers, agriculture for exemple, there is always the question about how much time you spend doing your official work, growing or building things to sell, and how much time you spend advertizing, looking for customers. Winemakers often told me they have two jobs : winemaker and salesman. They mean it's very difficult to do both in a satisfying way. Can't be at the oven and at the mill at the same time.
In a recent JHS video, answering to the Bad Monckey hype, JHS mentionned several times that his work is about making utube videos, that's what he does "all the time" (09:09'). Maybe it's just a a figure of speech, maybe it's a bit more than that ?
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Maybe his website used descriptive language but he has stated that the Morning Glory is Bluesbreaker when he lumps it into the "black box" BluesBreaker clones along with King of Tone and Pantheon (5:30 timestamp if the link doesn't bring you there)
He also talked about clones and gave a gist of how the pedal community views it here in this video.
The basic message here is schematics are kind of fair game, but the intellectual property should be protected.
He also talked about clones and gave a gist of how the pedal community views it here in this video.
The basic message here is schematics are kind of fair game, but the intellectual property should be protected.
fontoponto
Well-known member
You should take the ThomannCharts with a grain of salt. What time frame is mentioned? None. They also list only pedals that are currently available.Are we sure about this ? Isn't JHS a small fly compared to EHX and Boss elephants ?
I tried to have a look, googled "market share of guitar stompboxes sales", and JHS are not even mentioned among the top players in any of the documents I found.
Some exemples :
The Guitar Pedals Market Statistics and Opportunities By 2029| 101 Pages
Mar 14, 2023 (The Expresswire) -- Final Report will add an analysis of the impact of the Russia-Ukraine War and COVID-19 on the "Guitar Pedals" industry....www.marketwatch.com
Guitar Pedals market is projected to reach USD 5.7 Billion by 2029 : Cognitive Market Research
As per Cognitive Market Research analysis the Guitar Pedals market size is projected to grow from USD 3 2 Billion in the year 2022 to USD 5 7 Billion by 2029 at a CAGR of 4 1 from 2022 2029 ...www.openpr.com
However, I finally found JHS mentioned in the top sellers in 2020, but only on Reverb, 8th position among ten brands :
www.instagram.com/p/CIYJl78n8Bv/?utm_source=ig_embed&utm_campaign=loading
On Thomann, european music equipment number one store, JHS doesn't appear in the top sellers in the biggest category in terms of sales :
Meilleures ventes Thomann: Distorsions / Overdrives / Fuzz
Pour beaucoup de clients la liste de nos meilleures ventes est un guide fiable pour l'achat d'équipement. Elle donne un apercu rapide de ce que les autres clients Thomann ont décidé d´acheter.www.thomann.de
Morning Glory is JHS most successful product in europe, in 45th position. Who notice the 45th player as "new and shiny" ?
So are you sure JHS share of pedal sales could motivate a collab with the two biggest brands, I mean isn'it something else ?
eh là bas ma
Well-known member
I just watched this video about cloning, and I learned lots of interesting points. Trade dressing, difficulties of cloning something accurately, etc.
It gave me a better understanding about the logic behind it and why JHS do what they do. Thanks !
"I love clone kits, I recommend them" (54:30')
Isn't it nice to hear ?
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Dysvalence
Member
Dunno if you're counting the more ampless/preamp-ish side of things but I feel like those at least have more creative use and voicing of a greater variety of building blocks, especially with high gain or bass stuff.
idk, as someone who doesn't really go for transparent OD or vintage dirt guitar tones I can't help but wonder if ease of design/production + predictable consumer tastes have something to do with it.
fontoponto
Well-known member
I woild
But he’s not a comercial big shot but a pcb seller. Great work I admire it.
like this?
But he’s not a comercial big shot but a pcb seller. Great work I admire it.
Feral Feline
Well-known member
Here's my old list, @eh là bas ma, it desperately needs updating:
To give you an idea of how old that list above is, see the last entry, the VCR.
VCR has been traced and of course is a FV-1 circuit...
Hit me up, people, with your corrections and updates.
JHS
JHS 4 Wheeler = Zvex Wooly Mammoth
JHS '73 Ram's Head Replica = EHX Big Muff
JHS 808 = Ibanez Tube Screamer
JHS All American = Fuzzrocious Rat Tail (Proco Rat Clone)
JHS Angry Charlie = MI Audio Crunch Box
JHS Astro Mess = Devi Ever Hyperion
JHS Bun Runner = Devi Ever Hyperion + Tone Bender
JHS Charlie Brown = General Guitar Gadgets BSIAB
JHS Colour Box = Neve console preamp
JHS Double Barrel = Ibanez Tube Screamer + Marshall Bluesbreaker
JHS Firefly Fuzz = Sola Sound Tone Bender Professional MKIII
JHS Honey Comb = EA Tremolo
JHS Honey Comb Deluxe = Ian McDermott’s Chopper
JHS Morning Glory = Marshall Bluesbreaker/KoT halve
JHS Mr. Magic = Zvex Super Hard On
JHS Panther Cub = EHX Deluxe Memory Man
JHS Pulp ‘N’ Peel = Dan Armstrong Orange Squeezer
JHS Superbolt = Run Off Groove's Supreaux
JHS Sweet Tea = Ibanez Tube Screamer + MI Audio Crunch Box
Traced
4 Wheeler Fuzz - Zvex Woolly Mammoth
73 Rams Head Replica - EHX Big Muff
808 - Ibanez Tube Screamer with clipping mod
Andy Timmons - Mi Audio Crunch Box
Angry Charlie - Mi Audio Crunch Box
All America - Pro Co RAT
Alpine - Sky Pedals Cloud 9
Astro Mess - Devi Ever Hyperion
Bass Mini Bomb - Tim Escobedo's Duende JFET(Bass version)
Banana Boost - ROG Omega
Blender - ROG Splitter-Blender
Bun Runner - Devi Ever Hyperion + Tone Bender
Charlier Brown - Zvex Distortron
Double Barrel - Marshall Bluesbreaker + Ibanez Tube Screamer
Emperor - Arion SCH-1 chorus
Feedback Looper - diy Feedback Looper with volume control added
FireFly - Sola Sound ToneBender MKIII(Madbean PastyFace)
Green Tea - Dan Armstrong Orange Squeezer(Bass) + ROG Splitter-Blender + Tim Escobedo's Duende JFET
Honey Comb - EA Tremolo
Kilt - Bixonic Expandora + Booster(booster not traced)
Lime Aid - Dan Armstrong Orange Squeezer (Bass version)
Low Drive - Ibanez Tube Screamer w/ fat & clipping mods (“bass” pedal rebranded as moonshine)
Klon Replica - Bill Finnegan Klon Centaur
Mini Bomb - Tim Escobedo's Duende JFET
Mini Foot Fuzz - Bazz Fuss
Moonshine - Ibanez Tube Screamer w/ fat & clipping mods (was “Low Drive”, didn’t sell, rebrand sells well)
Morning Glory - Marshall Bluesbreaker
Mr Magic - AMZ Mosfet Booster
Muffuletta - EHX Big Muff
Pandamonium - Zvex Wolly Mammoth + ROG Flipster
Panther Analog Delay - BOSS DM-2
Panther Cub V 1.5 - BOSS DM-2
Pink Panther Delay (OLD and NEW) - pt2399 digital delay(tonepad rebote delay)
Pollinator - Dallas Arbiter/Dunlop Fuzz Face(Germanium)
Prestige - AMZ Mosfet Booster
Pulp n Peel - Dan Armstrong Orange Squeezer
Ruby Red - ROG Superaux Deux + booster(booster not traced)
Steak N Eggs - Marshall Blues Breaker + Keeley Copmressor
State Line - Zvex Distortron + Marshall Blues Breaker
Superbolt - ROG Superaux Deux
Sweet Tea - Ibanez Tube Screamer + Mi Audio Crunch Box
The Calhoun - Eighty Seven Percent - De Stijl + Sola Sound ToneBender MKIII (Madbean PastyFace)
Twin Twelve - Eighty Seven Percent - De Stijl
Unicorn - Uni-Vibe + tap tempo
Warble Tron - Uni-Vibe (Madbean Harbinger One)
Not Traced Yet
Colour Box - not traced
Crayon - not traced
The Milkman - not traced looks like tp2399 delay + boost
VCR - not traced looks like pt2399 chorus + btdr reverb + boost
To give you an idea of how old that list above is, see the last entry, the VCR.
VCR has been traced and of course is a FV-1 circuit...
Hit me up, people, with your corrections and updates.
szukalski
Well-known member
The reality is that the public doesn’t want new stuff. They want a 1959 Les Paul and a pedal they’ve heard on the records they love. The rest is just marketing. The only ones who designed anything are the people who made the reference architecture/docs for components, which are then copied ad nauseum. (Not entirely true but not too far from it).
It would be nice to have more transparency but an “original” design sells more units. Hell, for people outside the DIY community it is new to them!
It would be nice to have more transparency but an “original” design sells more units. Hell, for people outside the DIY community it is new to them!
Harry Klippton
Well-known member
fontoponto
Well-known member
Still up
imagine receiving your box with a butt imprint
