non-C0G/NP0 MLCC caps

D

DDad

Member
For my retirement hobby I stocked up on parts for over 100 pedals (I think the economy has a high chance of crashing and I want my stuff before that happens).
But all my MLCC caps were purchased from Tayda and Amazon.
I have since read in this forum that Tayda and Amazon do not carry the best materials for MLCC caps (C0G and NP0). The non-C0G/NP0 types are supposedly poor in many different ways.

How much is the difference in performance and reliability in guitar pedals between using Tayda types and C0G/NP0?

How many of you are using Tayda caps without issues?

Before I placed my orders I learned from the forums that ICs and transistors are best purchased from Mouser and DigiKey, but I missed the capacitor material types issue...d'oh.
 
I've heard the same stuff.

You know what I've never heard?

"My pedal was noisy and bad sounding, so I changed the caps to a different brand/ tolerance/ class, and now it sounds much better"

Maybe you could be the brave soul who breadboards a circuit or two, auditions some different caps and reports back.

I'll probably happily continue to use whatever's cheapest from Tayda either way.

DDad said:
ICs and transistors are best purchased from Mouser and DigiKey
Click to expand...

I'll keep getting those from Tayda too.
 
That's a can of worms.

1. Budget DIYers love the challenge of building pedals as cheaply as possible. They typically advise buying the cheapest possible parts and argue that even if there is a difference in performance, it's not big enough to justify the ROI of pricier components.

It's true that if you use these capacitors your builds will function. In that sense they're fine. Performance is subjective and if maximizing cost savings is what excites you about building pedals, then go for it.

2. Performance DIYers would only use X7R or X5R MLCC caps in very specific circumstances, if at all. These caps are much noisier and their capacitance value can change quite a bit depending on the voltage they're subjected to. If maximizing performance gets you excited about building pedals, then buy quality film caps and use those instead.
 
There's a lot of subtlety in MLCC dielectric types, and the best answer is going to be "it depends". What the code is telling you is essentially the stability of the capacitor across a temperature range. One of the main pitfalls of MLCC are their tendency to have "capacitance drift" or hysteresis across temperature and when confronted with voltages close to their operational limit.

Class 1 capacitors like C0G/NP0 are the most stable, with a theoretical 0 drift and a temperature range of -55°C to +125°C. Class 2 capacitors is where most "budget caps" will live, and include things like X7R, Y5V, etc. In these dielectrics, the first digit of the code gives you the low temperature limit, the second is the high temperature limit, and the third is the amount which you can expect the capacitance to drift. For example:

X = -55°C
7 = +125°C
R = ±15%

The temperature range is the same as the C0G/NP0, but the hysteresis is higher. X7R are still generally considered stable, and are the "worst" we use at my day job. As a further reference, an X7S capacitor will have the same temperature range but with a ±22% hysteresis.

SO WHAT DOES ALL OF THIS MEAN FOR PEDALS?

Well what temperature range does the pedal live at? It's particularly concerning for me because I stick tubes in my pedals for some reason, which means it's not unusual for the innards to get warm. I also have high voltages running around in there, and if you have an X7R capacitor rated for 250V and it's seeing 230V in circuit, you're going to lose confidence in that capacitor being the correct value in circuit.

If you're running a stock tubescreamer and you're using Y5S capacitors (-30°C to +85°C with ±22% hysteresis), you may still be fine as long as you've selected a reasonable enough voltage rating; I would typically aim for at least double what they're going to see, i.e. in a 9V circuit I would use ≤25V caps.

Thanks for coming to the TED talk I wasn't actually invited to, but I hope something in there is interesting/useful.
 
This has been discussed many times

Search results for query: mlcc

forum.pedalpcb.com forum.pedalpcb.com
There are also plenty of white papers on the topic.
MLCC in general aren't good, but they're cheap. They distort, derate when DC is applied and can be microphonic. But they're cheap.
It depends on the circuit and where/how they are used as to how much that matters.
It's really up to the builder and their ethos.
 
"How many of you are using Tayda caps without issues?"
I build a couple hundred pedals a year for sale. I only use Tayda caps. The cheaper and more ceramic, the better. Its a guitar pedal not a hi-fi playback device. Most pedals are designed to alter the sound, so why would we worry that capacitors are altering the sound? I have had ZERO returns from capacitor failures or audiophile corksniffery in over 20 years of doing this.
 
Thank you for the answers, and yes I had read many posts on it (after I purchased). Most of my 'builds' have just been breadboarded so far (so I can see if I want to change clipping), and with the breadboard/no faraday cage comes noise so it's hard to tell differences between things like cap types. Dual op-amps all sound the same to my ears in a breadboard (tried a bunch), etc. So it is a relief to hear from people who use Tayda caps.
 
Every now and then a thread comes up that the whole community engages in. Lines are drawn, alliances shattered, feels are butthurt and memes are generated. It stays atop the board for days, sometimes weeks even. Some members quit the forum and nuke their posts. Eventually, no consensus is met, the OP is befuddled with more questions than answers, the thread falls down the board and the dust settles.
Then, 8 months later a new member comes along and starts the shit all over again. 🤣
 
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