Pedal Selling Questions - Testing and Customer Service Mostly

[dividedzero]

So I had a period of hyperfixation on building pedals (AuDHD or whatever) and created over 400 working pedals and eurorack modules. It was fun and the first hobby that lasted more than a few projects (ADHD things really). Anyway, I've just now working to get them all (or try to get all of them at least) into enclosures which has proven to be the worst part but that's not my problem here. I've bought everything from reputable places that everyone else uses like Mouser and lovemyswitches. On one very early attempt I used some random pots from Amazon but they had so much static they basically were worthless so I replaced them all and learned my lesson there and fired Amazon.

I didn't know what else to do with them. Who needs 400 effects units? So I've been selling them. I've been doing ok and not really worried about if they sell or not but of the few that have, I've had a couple returned for my fault.

One return was my fault and I fixed it, another was probably an early misunderstanding I had but I'm not sure until it gets here (worked for me in testing) but the 3rd one is disappointing. I thought I tested thoroughly because at this point I'm thinking I'm delusional and stupid and need to just throw everything in the trash (despite a few pedals out there doing fine and making people happy). I insulated anything that could possibly ground out just to be safe. I plugged it in and blasted the crap out of it on all settings, shake around the wires to make sure that wouldn't change things. Test each knob at different settings and make sure they don't scream when you turn them and they actually make the change you expect. All that. Dude gets it and says he tried it on 2 amps and the first 2 effects are "unusable" and the third is weak. As you probably know, this circuit is designed to be pretty vintage voiced so I'm wondering if maybe he doesn't have experience with that and is expecting something more modern.

Anyway, I'm basically looking for any advice on any of this outside of what's generally repeated on these forums ( caps on back of pots, reflow, etc etc etc), especially as it relates to customers too. Like is it common for people to buy pedals, try them, say they don't work and return them to get around the return policies? What are your testing procedures and equipment? I'm using my own guitar, bass cables and amps. I also sometimes use other common commercial pedals where I think it makes sense (like an overdrive into a homemade preamp to see how the compression, etc handles it). I'm wondering if I'm missing a step or my equipment isn't right. I also follow all the directions for internal trimpots and whatever calibration is recommended.

Sorry for the long post. I'm not trying to scam anyone or get rich. Just trying to get these out of my house and finally have a hobby to help all my mental health issues. Also I want to be better and learn from these mistakes but I'm reading what I think is everything on the subject and I'm not seeing anyone else mentioning any of this. And to make people happy with cool noises more than enjoying. I've been able to find a lot of really neat circuits and can't wait for them to find homes.

Thoughts? Experiences?

Thank you for reading and whatever help I get.

 

[jimilee]

2 thoughts, the only variable you can’t control is the buyer. We’ve all seen where the screw it up and claim it was the sellers fault.
Video demos of the pedals to put in your listings. Protects you from anything funny happening.

 

[vigilante398]

Anyway, I'm basically looking for any advice on any of this outside of what's generally repeated on these forums ( caps on back of pots, reflow, etc etc etc), especially as it relates to customers too. Like is it common for people to buy pedals, try them, say they don't work and return them to get around the return policies? What are your testing procedures and equipment? I'm using my own guitar, bass cables and amps. I also sometimes use other common commercial pedals where I think it makes sense (like an overdrive into a homemade preamp to see how the compression, etc handles it). I'm wondering if I'm missing a step or my equipment isn't right. I also follow all the directions for internal trimpots and whatever calibration is recommended.

I'll mostly address this paragraph here.

My test setup is a looper and my recording interface into a pair of studio monitors. This gives me a consistent platform so I know exactly what the output should look like each time. If there's a new design that I haven't verified before, I will run the looper overnight and record the output, so I can check back in the morning and make sure the pedal will operate consistently even after 12+ hours of uninterrupted use. I would love to do this for every pedal I sell, but it gets less practical as your sales increase.

How I deal with returns, is I don't issue the return until I get the pedal back. If there's nothing wrong with it, I take a 10% restocking fee. If there's something wrong with the pedal that is determined to be a quality issue, then I will offer to repair it and cover shipping to get it back to them, or issue a refund or replacement. When someone sends a pedal back that they say is faulty and I determine it is not (happens unfortunately often), I take a video to show the pedal working properly and send it to them and let them know that they would be responsible for a restocking fee, unless they decide to keep the pedal, in which case they will still have to cover the shipping cost to get the pedal back to them.

I'm not Amazon or Walmart, I make these one at a time by hand, I can't afford to let tire-kickers return anything anytime.

Granted all of this is assuming you're selling either in-person or via a personal website where you have full control of the return policy, and you're not at the mercy of Reverb or eBay policies.

 

[dividedzero]

2 thoughts, the only variable you can’t control is the buyer. We’ve all seen where the screw it up and claim it was the sellers fault.
Video demos of the pedals to put in your listings. Protects you from anything funny happening.

Thank you. I had been using the demo videos the PCB manufacturers post. and I verify that mine makes the same sounds. I realize that may not be good enough but, and I'm a little embarrassed to admit, I am a shit player. I can make it make noise, a few cords and a scale probably. I do have a really handy rig from EAE (or somewhere like that) that is designed to play a sound clip through whatever you plug into it (as well as test circuits in various other ways). All the videos I see are of amazing players. It seems all the builders are also pretty good guitarists and I'm out here just "hey guys, I like making noise with electricity!".

But thank you for that. If/when I create my own circuits I will definitely make videos of them myself. I appreciate that advice. I hadn't thought of those videos in that way. CYOA. I am too trusting for sure.

 

[dividedzero]

I'll mostly address this paragraph here.

My test setup is a looper and my recording interface into a pair of studio monitors. This gives me a consistent platform so I know exactly what the output should look like each time. If there's a new design that I haven't verified before, I will run the looper overnight and record the output, so I can check back in the morning and make sure the pedal will operate consistently even after 12+ hours of uninterrupted use. I would love to do this for every pedal I sell, but it gets less practical as your sales increase.

How I deal with returns, is I don't issue the return until I get the pedal back. If there's nothing wrong with it, I take a 10% restocking fee. If there's something wrong with the pedal that is determined to be a quality issue, then I will offer to repair it and cover shipping to get it back to them, or issue a refund or replacement. When someone sends a pedal back that they say is faulty and I determine it is not (happens unfortunately often), I take a video to show the pedal working properly and send it to them and let them know that they would be responsible for a restocking fee, unless they decide to keep the pedal, in which case they will still have to cover the shipping cost to get the pedal back to them.

I'm not Amazon or Walmart, I make these one at a time by hand, I can't afford to let tire-kickers return anything anytime.

Granted all of this is assuming you're selling either in-person or via a personal website where you have full control of the return policy, and you're not at the mercy of Reverb or eBay policies.

you are amazing. thank you so much for this. an important part of what I think I needed was the reassurance. after an exchange with the customer (and waiting for final confirmation) it does seem like he may not have experience with pedals as much, especially vintage pedals and those made to sound like them like this pedal. And his reports are about sound and not squeezing pots or no effect when turned or any other builder error that I can ascertain so *phew*. as you can probably tell, I'm feeling a little vulnerable about this whole endeavor.

I hadn't thought of the stress testing so thank you for saving my ass later there. I plan to do my own later but for now it's just the mountain of diy circuits that I'm labeling experimental. I do need to emphasis that point more maybe.

I actually forgot restocking free was a thing. I'll have to use that. And you're right, I need to get off Reverb, just seemed easiest for now. I have everything marked "as described", I put in as much detail as I can think of and post the demo of the circuit from the manufacturer and explain how mine is different. I've learned from another comment that I'll start doing specific videos myself even though I play like shit, I'll just send a recording through. I don't think I can do that for all 400 or how many I manage to mount and still work but I'll try.

The one thing I realized after posting is that it's kind of hard for me to draw the line between working and not working when it involves the sound itself (not grounding issues, etc). There are just so many setups and settings plus it can be subjective. It could turn out that my interpretation of working might be different than the customer just on the difference in sound based on setup. Mainly I think I can get past that now knowing that it's probably not my equipment and there's not a special guitar/amp setup or equipment people are secretly using that I didn't know about.

Again, this builder to builder advice is invaluable. I cannot thank you enough for taking the time to write this. It has honestly helped a lot.

 

[szukalski]

Granted all of this is assuming you're selling either in-person or via a personal website where you have full control of the return policy, and you're not at the mercy of Reverb or eBay policies.

Or EU regulations. I love their protections as a consumer, but it does make selling a lot more complicated.

 

[drew.spriggs]

I've had 4 issues with pedals I've sold over the last few years:

• one guy mentioned after sending it back he'd "accidentally" plugged in a 48v AC power supply.
• one guy was adamant the wah I sent him was "noisy" despite me testing it at 4 different venues under a range of gear. After a lot of back and forth, he finally tested some different leads and realised he had a bad one - the first thing I had suggested for him to try.
• had a Klone sent back because the owners house got STRUCK BY LIGHTNING while he was playing, and he asked if there was anything I could do to fix it. Turns out - yep. Just a zener had died. Replaced that and it worked fine - he was incredibly appreciative and insisted on paying me for it.
• I sold a modded DS1 to a kid who was insistent he knew all about pedals even though he had told me it was his first. After him using at my place when he picked it up, he messaged me when he got home to say it didn't work and he wanted his money back. I asked if he was using a mono lead on the input jack because this is how all Boss pedals turn on. I didn't hear from him again.

As much as I like everybody, musicians are undoubtedly some of the dumbest AND loudest people on the planet (and I count myself in this group). Random mistakes do happen, but as long as you build things well and test everything before you sell it, most problems won't be caused by you.

 

[Robert]

Granted all of this is assuming you're selling either in-person or via a personal website where you have full control of the return policy, and you're not at the mercy of Reverb or eBay policies.

Or PayPal...

PayPal doesn't care about your return or shipping policy... 99.9% of the time PayPal will side with the buyer, regardless of the circumstances.

In the two cases where PayPal didn't side with the buyer they still gave them a full refund, but PayPal covered the refund rather than reversing the payment.

I've even had a buyer file a claim because a shipment was late... While PayPal conducted their "investigation" the shipment showed up, both the buyer and I notified PayPal that the shipment had arrived and tracking reflected that, yet PayPal still refunded their money.

You know how some shops claim they won't replace / refund any lost or damaged uninsured USPS packages? PayPal does not agree.

Ever asked for a refund but the shop said initial shipping costs would be deducted from the refund? PayPal does not agree.

Stating a policy doesn't mean PayPal will accept it, even if the customer clicks an "I agree to these terms" checkbox at the time of checkout.

Personally I don't deny refunds and I don't question or argue with buyers... if something goes wrong I try to make it right without involving PayPal, even if I'm pretty dang sure I'm not in the wrong... and while I can't prevent a buyer from filing a PayPal dispute and snatching back their payment unfairly, I can insure they don't do it twice...

Thankfully, in eight years I've only had two instances of someone actually being dishonest...

 

[jimilee]

I've had 4 issues with pedals I've sold over the last few years:

• one guy mentioned after sending it back he'd "accidentally" plugged in a 48v AC power supply.
• one guy was adamant the wah I sent him was "noisy" despite me testing it at 4 different venues under a range of gear. After a lot of back and forth, he finally tested some different leads and realised he had a bad one - the first thing I had suggested for him to try.
• had a Klone sent back because the owners house got STRUCK BY LIGHTNING while he was playing, and he asked if there was anything I could do to fix it. Turns out - yep. Just a zener had died. Replaced that and it worked fine - he was incredibly appreciative and insisted on paying me for it.
• I sold a modded DS1 to a kid who was insistent he knew all about pedals even though he had told me it was his first. After him using at my place when he picked it up, he messaged me when he got home to say it didn't work and he wanted his money back. I asked if he was using a mono lead on the input jack because this is how all Boss pedals turn on. I didn't hear from him again.

As much as I like everybody, musicians are undoubtedly some of the dumbest AND loudest people on the planet (and I count myself in this group). Random mistakes do happen, but as long as you build things well and test everything before you sell it, most problems won't be caused by you.

How many guitar players does it take to change a light bulb?

5

One to change it and 4 to say, “I can do that.”

 

[Locrian99]

Ive sold quite a few pedals. Ive had a couple issues (one actually came back today and the problem was genuine). Which im fairly certain happened in shipping. Tone pot was now bad sounded fine as long as it was fully ccw, almost as soon as you started turning it went super thin. Positive i tested that…

Ive had 4 returns, and 1 i coached the guy through fixing. In my experience everyone but 1 has been super cool. Id guess ive sold 75-100. In my experience its worth it to be super cool. I ussually kind of judge the conversation. All but 1 ive sent a return label to. The 1 was the guy said the pot and kettle didn’t sound right. And i had videos… it sounded fine resold and all was good.

If youre selling on reverb/marketplace reviews matter. Just take care of it. Also when something comes up remember to test it. Ive had two where the problem was no bypass signal. Both were my fault (one solder bridge under the daughterboard, one i just failed to solder the lug to the board). I thoroughly tested the effect but apparebtly not bypass. I test all bypass now. All switches all knobs. Unplug everything and plug it in a couple times etc.

 

[falco_femoralis]

Oh man. Dealing with customers is an art that takes years to develop. Don't feel bad about it. First, for returns, do your best to communicate with the customer and determine what the problem is before they send it back. Apologize they are having an issue with their pedal. Tell them you want to help them figure it out. Establish that you are on their side and want to make things work out for them. Call it "their" pedal. Directly acknowledge the human feeling that it's frustrating this thing they were excited about isn't working. Reassure that you will help them to either find the cause, or if they have to send it back, you'll work that out with them as well. It's very important to leave stuff like that open ended. Don't work out the details for sending it back before you have done the required troubleshooting while the pedal is still in their possession. Many people feel angry during the first encounter, but that will diminish as you help them and as you build a relationship with them. Because of this you will be in a much better position to work out return shipping costs/ set expectations about turn around time and what they can expect. When you spend the time to develop a relationship with the customer they are much more likely to trust you and have a positive experience, despite the issue with the pedal. They just don't want to feel alone and like they were taken advantage of and most people react to those feelings with anger.

The very first thing you should do before any of this is construct your listings so you are perceived as friendly, helpful, and intelligent, but not arrogant. This communicates to a mature buyer that it's all going to go well, and it communicates to an immature buyer that you know what you are doing and won't tolerate any bs. It's about the subtext. Furthermore, everything I said above about directly confronting the customer's problem in a friendly and helpful way has the effect of discouraging the kind of person to try to manipulate the rules into either giving up or coming clean. If you can find a way to communicate in a non aggressive way that you just want them to be happy, they are more likely to feel disarmed and give up their charade, and may either come around to keeping the pedal, or working out an exchange for another pedal (ask them about their setup and suggest something else you have that may work better), and at the very very least, maybe they'll admit their lie to themselves and maybe they'll learn something about human interaction. When you don't respond in kind to negative angry aggressive behavior, you have a much better chance at getting the other person to back down.

For your thing now, just accept the pedal back and do your best to understand the customer's technical complaints and try to reproduce them in your studio. Maybe give them your phone number so you can speak on the phone so they feel they are talking to a human. It sounds like a dumb thing but these subtle subconscious things are what determines whether an interaction is good or bad. After you've tried to recreate their exact scenario, openly communicate your findings with the customer. Bring them along on the parts of your troubleshooting journey they might understand so that they know you are putting effort into their pedal. Then in the end if it's all good and you don't know wtf their problem was, they will at least know that you tried and maybe the pedal was fine after all. Or if the pedal had something defective, fix it and apologize for their experience with the pedal, and that you will have it shipped back to them asap after you've thoroughly tested it.

The most important part is to have the frame of mind that you want things to work out for the person who is giving you money for something you made from nothing. You don't know that person but they have a life and are taking a chance with your DIY stuff when esp today everything is so branded. The attitude you have toward the customer is your greatest asset when you compare yourself to more established, but faceless brands