Professional vs amateur-ish in PCB design

[Robert]

You really should be book matching those squiggly lines. And those square bits are all wrong.

I know you're joking, but one thing I'd like to point out is that trace length is greatly exaggerated on screen.

Remember, these PCBs are typically about 2" square in person. Possibly less than the excess wire from offboard wiring hardware.

• I avoid SMD where possible. Harder to service, harder to solder, harder to see, nearly impossible for the tinkering stage.
• I avoid plated-through holes where possible. Components are nearly impossible to unsolder. Through hole designs and plated-through PCBs are good for production but bad for repair and tinkering.

First let me clarify, I am not an engineer. I've never even been on a train. My experience comes from 20 years in the repair industry troubleshooting and repairing, not designing.

Saying a product isn't professionally (or well) designed because it isn't easily repaired by a beginner repair tech (or bedroom warrior) is a blurring of the lines of the amateur / professional definitions.

Any repair technician being held to the same standards we're holding the circuit designer should have the proper equipment and experience to handle both SMD and plated through-holes with ease. I'd question a repair technician who refuses or struggles to work on either.

Just because Bill can't replace a BGA with his trusty old Radio Shack doesn't necessarily mean modern electronics are inherently poorly designed.

I don't completely disagree with the rest of what you're saying.

 

[szukalski]

length is greatly exaggerated on screen

That’s what all the boys say.

 

[CR0SSBL4DE]

Since this seems to invite discussion, here's my C$0.02.


Disagree on all counts. I do all of the above on a regular basis and actually prefer it to doing the same with through hole parts. YMMV.


I couldn't disagree any stronger. I avoid non-plated-through holes like the plague. Single-sided PCBs are the bane of my existence as a repair guy. No mechanical strength, pads just lift off and solder joints crack around the component legs under the smallest of stresses. Yes, it's easier to unsolder, but you often end up with a lifted or broken pad, especially with older, "cooked" PCBs. I wouldn't use single-sided PCBs (non-PTH) even for the simplest of designs.


For one-offs, sure. I disagree, though, if you're making stuff in any kind of quantity >2 or so. Offboard wiring gets really, really old and time-consuming when making multiple units (unless you like sweatshop-type work).


There's no conflict if you're reasonably good at servicing. Especially if you design the thing to minimize the need for servicing in the first place (no non-plated-through holes, no Amazon-grade pots/jacks/switches, among other things).


If a layout looks too deliberately pretty or with forced symmetry, I'm suspicious. Robert's are probably fine, though


Mixed feelings. In my experience it's been relatively hard to royally eff up a ground plane in pedal-related designs (not a very demanding application). I definitely haven't applied "ultimate care and knowledge" in my ground plane designs, yet I've had zero issues. They've universally made things better for me despite probably not doing them entirely "by the book". I don't even have the book. Of course, other more-demanding applications require more care.


Agreed. I'm in the "this is not an arts-and-crafts project, it's technology" camp. I feel the UI has to be very legible, logical and professional. You know, kind of like Boss pedals? But hey, if you want to make an art project out of it, by all means.

I was going to reply, but JTEX stole the words from my mouth. So all the above for me too!

 

[Nostradoomus]

why is this in the modifications subforum?








Seems like....








Amateur hour.

 

[Robert]

why is this in the modifications subforum?

Why is anything anywhere, for that matter?

If you're looking to make a change "modifications" seems like as good a place as any to start.

 

[Nostradoomus]

Why is anything anywhere, for that matter?

If you're looking to make a change "modifications" seems like as good a place as any to start.

YEAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[bean]

Wait... there's a war?

Hey @bean!

Sorry, I only engage in Psychic Wars.

 

[Robert]

Sorry, I only engage in Psychic Wars.

Then you should have seen this coming....

 

[Nostradoomus]

Then you should have seen this coming....

rude thing to say to a veteran

 

[LukeFRC]

I know you're joking, but one thing I'd like to point out is that trace length is greatly exaggerated on screen.

Remember, these PCBs are typically about 2" square in person. Possibly less than the excess wire from offboard wiring hardware.

I was talking to one of the guys at work about something we're developing.
There's a component that has to be kept between 4.9 and 5.1v - and if it detects fluctuations it bricks itself and has to go back to the manufacturer for a reset. This is a good security feature.

Then the 240v - 5v power supply component we were using got black listed as apparently the Chinese company were also selling it to Russia and it was ending up in drones, so they had to redesign it for a larger power supply - apparently it being 3mm bigger meant that the traces were different lengths with different capacitance and the whole thing had to be redesigned...
"you know something about circuit design don't you?"
"er I laid out a fuzz pedal, it's kinda not the same"

 

[Nostradoomus]

that's so weird how your company doesn't want to pay for an expert on the subject, so atypical

 

[LukeFRC]

that's so weird how your company doesn't want to pay for an expert on the subject, so atypical

oh no there's enough experts it's complex enough product you couldn't do it without - it's just Putin's war managed to delay us from when the gov said we needed it deployed

 

[Nostradoomus]

that wasn't my real critique

 

[LukeFRC]

that wasn't my real critique

oh don't worry, I'm kept well away from it

 

[falco_femoralis]

I wouldn't say the "degradation of the term professional" or the negative connotation of the word 'amateur' has been recent at all. As far back as I can remember, 'amateur' had exactly the meaning you first allude to.

Your post seems to be from an academic point of view rather than a realistic - you don't take into account other considerations that may have been factors in PCB designs that aren't directly related - cost, materials, limitations of the day.

You also seem to have a binary point of view, rather than taking the realist approach that each individual person designs boards in their own way, varying slightly from one to the next. This is where the color and excitement in our craft comes from and is something that should be celebrated.

I just don't see where your sense of urgency comes from. Just do your own thing, show it off, and engage with others in a helpful manner..

 

[Big Monk]

The OP is too dense to make a sensible counterpoints to.

I will say this: I’ve always thought the idea of boards bouncing around inside enclosures with offboard wired pots, jacks and switches gives an illusion of reliability and repair ability.

We all have different ideas of what constitutes reliable and serviceable.

I’m gonna stick with board mounted pots and header mounted switches and I/O.

 

[Robert]

I will say this: I’ve always thought the idea of boards bouncing around inside enclosures with offboard wired pots, jacks and switches gives an illusion of reliability and repair ability.

I know Boss is reliable, I know they don't break.... but man, the idea of just shoving the PCB in there with a bundle of wires and slipping a plastic "business card" under the lid so it doesn't short out seems less than ideal.

 

[falco_femoralis]

While you're at it, are boss pedals really that much more reliable than a JHS etc? Or are they so ubiquitous that they give an illusion of reliablity?

Also, when they hit the market other companies were making pedals out of plastic cases - a Boss pedal would be more reliable because of its metal casing rather than PCB design. Or maybe we are wrong about what really contributes to reliability, if Boss can do it with a floating PCB and the plastic back piece.

I feel like reliability comes from a simplistic design, reduction of human/builder error thru design (on board components that integrate with the case well), and quality components and building technique.

Robert's boards are laid out in a way that reduces clutter and reinforces cleanliness. Having the values printed directly on the board eliminates one source of human error - taking your eyes off the PCB to double check a BOM.

 

[Big Monk]

The real issue with a lot of the OP is the insinuation that with professionalism comes a step down in the care and design of a product.

That’s so false as to be laughable if it wasn’t so insulting.

I was a hobbyist first and I’m an electrical engineer by trade.

I’m most proud of the care I put into my designs and I don’t believe the presence of board mounted components, lack of offboard wiring or presence of SMD components is a sacrifice.

It’s a continual expansion and revision with all the points the OP set out to discuss present in spades, rather than devoid of.

My opinion with respect to @aquataur?

If your lonely and looking for dialogue, maybe talk sports or some other fun subject.

Also show some pictures of your builds so we can decide the level of care you lavish on your stuff.

 

[bean]

Then you should have seen this coming....

You should visit my home page since it hasn't changed in the last 7 years. I'm a veteran and I can see forever.