Stickman393
Well-known member
Makes sense, I'm exclusively talking about leaded caps.
Best place to order resistors?
- Thread starter jdduffield
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Stickman393
Well-known member
The quality of everything that is manufactured keeps getting worse and worse. Except for ceramic capacitors.
God bless ye, kemet. Or whomever.
jessenator
Well-known member
I guess my dirtbox mindset is like: was it good enough for $manufacturer in their day? Is my Rat going to be more or less Rat with PP caps?
that's what I was thinking of. I need to go study more.
Some of the box caps, if one isn't paying attention, look the same, but aren't. Gotta read all the details. https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKP2C031501H00MN00?qs=iPPgFPFs9PNjgSXnqrG9ng== <- a Wima PP cap. Bigger than the other 100n caps of theirs, but I couldn't find PP caps under 63ish V.
This also doesn't help
But still the same. Nothing under 63V, so maybe it's not needed/worth it to manufacturers. ~93 options with Polyester, mostly Kemet.Might be what those no-name box caps on Tayda are made from? Yeah, if I had done the simplest thing of actually looking I would have saved myself this excretion of 
energy. 
I totally goofed there. In my head are the old Panasonic EQCs... Metalized Plastic Film
that's what I was thinking of. I need to go study more.Some of the box caps, if one isn't paying attention, look the same, but aren't. Gotta read all the details. https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKP2C031501H00MN00?qs=iPPgFPFs9PNjgSXnqrG9ng== <- a Wima PP cap. Bigger than the other 100n caps of theirs, but I couldn't find PP caps under 63ish V.
This also doesn't help
But still the same. Nothing under 63V, so maybe it's not needed/worth it to manufacturers. ~93 options with Polyester, mostly Kemet.
energy.
Stickman393
Well-known member
The fact that most commercially available pedals are made with cheaper polyester and ceramic caps, and that *many* recordings were made with these, is certainly a vote in favor of not spending too much time on obsessing over such small things.
That said: market forces often dictate what manufacturers end up using. Typically it's a matter of "what components do the job, are reliable enough, and are the cheapest so we can drive up that profit margin?" Rather than "what is ideal for this circuit?"
Granted, maybe ideal doesn't give ya the sound that you want. Maybe it's the imperfections that make us jive with a particular pedal.
What's fun about pedal building, though, is that you have complete control over what goes into a pedal. You can experiment. See what your ears like. Though, it should be noted, that your ears will lie to you. Like...all the time.
Seriously, you're very likely to "hear" an improvement with a more expensive component simply because you paid more for it and that's what your mind expects to hear, even if there is literally no difference to the waveforms produced. Psychology is weird. Humans are unreliable. This is why the audiophile community is full of folks that will spend essentially the same amount as what it takes to purchase of small vehicle for a set of speakers.
They are easily influenced by folks that are either similarly influenced, or by those who know how to market in such a way that even otherwise rational and highly intelligent folks buy into Paper in snake oil.
Eh? Eh?
That said: market forces often dictate what manufacturers end up using. Typically it's a matter of "what components do the job, are reliable enough, and are the cheapest so we can drive up that profit margin?" Rather than "what is ideal for this circuit?"
Granted, maybe ideal doesn't give ya the sound that you want. Maybe it's the imperfections that make us jive with a particular pedal.
What's fun about pedal building, though, is that you have complete control over what goes into a pedal. You can experiment. See what your ears like. Though, it should be noted, that your ears will lie to you. Like...all the time.
Seriously, you're very likely to "hear" an improvement with a more expensive component simply because you paid more for it and that's what your mind expects to hear, even if there is literally no difference to the waveforms produced. Psychology is weird. Humans are unreliable. This is why the audiophile community is full of folks that will spend essentially the same amount as what it takes to purchase of small vehicle for a set of speakers.
They are easily influenced by folks that are either similarly influenced, or by those who know how to market in such a way that even otherwise rational and highly intelligent folks buy into Paper in snake oil.
Eh? Eh?
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So true. I'll sometimes record DIs and use a reamp box to play them back straight into a pedal for the purpose of trying out different op amps or diodes or whatever. The amount of times I thought I heard a difference during the initial recording, only for every take to literally sound the same when played back to back, is a little humbling. I still like the fun of it though.
CheapSuitG
Well-known member
What is the best place to get resistors? Well....it is at @Stickman393's house. Just sneak in while he is gone, he will never know how many you took.
Stickman393
Well-known member
This is remarkably accurate.
However, one would be wise to bring treats. The guard stick cat may fiercely paw and meow at intruders until they receive said treats.
CheapSuitG
Well-known member
Breaking news - The Cheap Suit Bandit caught red handed by meowing cat, footage at 11.
jdduffield
Active member
Speaking of measuring ceramics, I bought a kit awhile back that had 3600 ceramics and they arrived mixed up. For the most part I can tell them apart by the code but in many cases the code is worn off or missing. I bought a Fluke multimeter to help sort it out (knowing I’d use it quite a lot in the future). I was surprised to find I couldn’t measure pF on the Fluke multimeter. Oh well. I even called the company and they told me that hand-held units don’t measure pF. I’ll keep the Fluke anyway as it is pretty awesome, but I learned something new that day.
Stickman393
Well-known member
Yeah, multimeters like those are meant for field electrical tests. In those circumstances picofarads don't particularly matter too often. They're more often meant to measure in the microfarad range - I use em at work for PSC single phase motor capacitors most often.
Plus, measuring those values can be complicated in and of itself. The capacitance of the meter leads themselves can throw off your measurements.
For something in the picofarads range, you'll either need something like the LC-1 transistor tester (which does OK, but anything below 20pf is out of range) or a dedicated LCR meter.
Plus, measuring those values can be complicated in and of itself. The capacitance of the meter leads themselves can throw off your measurements.
For something in the picofarads range, you'll either need something like the LC-1 transistor tester (which does OK, but anything below 20pf is out of range) or a dedicated LCR meter.
jdduffield
Active member
For anyone interested, here is my order. Would have been a lot cheaper on Amazon probably … but worth a try to me to see if the quality of inventory is indeed better. I realize I may never use some of these but I’m new to it and just don’t know. I also realize the leads are 10mm on some of these caps but I’m ok w that because I’m breadboarding and perf boarding and stuff. I probably ordered too many caps and not enough resistors, but I can get another round of resistors on a different paycheck. Next time around I want to get more diode options, some enclosures, and start building an inventory of various knobs.
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Locrian99
Well-known member
If youre buying higher end parts, shop around on digikey, mouser, newark. And buy a quantity even 10 i think will beat taydas price considerably. I use a lot of kemet myself, i dont think anyone could honestly hear the difference. And newark had a pretty awesome sale recently. Their inventory can cause navigating to the right part to be intimidating but its not too bad.
Stickman393
Well-known member
Agreed. Brand does not matter. If anything would matter, which is to say (????????????????), dielectric would matter. Wimas are just red. It's a marketing thing.
I prefer the blue of Kemet's polypropylene, personally. But I enjoy taking meaninglessly contrarian positions.
I prefer the blue of Kemet's polypropylene, personally. But I enjoy taking meaninglessly contrarian positions.
jessenator
Well-known member
I'd be curious if anyone's done a longevity or other practical stress testing on same-dielectric caps.
Stickman393
Well-known member
Well, polypropylene and polyester caps are self-healing to a certain degree.
That is to say, when an arc forms across the dielectric, the material has a tendency of flowing into and refilling the void, which restores functionality.
Not that we tend to stress our caps all that much with the voltages we're working at. I imagine the vast majority of our film caps are gonna be good for the lifetime of the pedals we make.
Electrolytics can drift down, and their electrolyte can leak out. High temp/high reliability caps tend to do this less.
Polymers are great for handing high ripple currents, but are a little less resilient than electrolytics when faced with an overvoltage condition. Also, they tend to be leakier. But with no electrolyte to dry out, they're great if one is concerned with longevity.
Tants will get very cross with you if you reverse polarity or go over their voltage rating. But they also seem to last forever when you treat em right.
Ceramics won't heal themselves, but if you don't subject them to voltages above their rating they tend to be pretty robust.
Honestly: the only ones I'd worry about are electrolytics when it comes to longevity. If I'm working on a pedal that's, like, 30-50 years old I'll check the electros just to make sure they haven't drifted out of spec.
That is to say, when an arc forms across the dielectric, the material has a tendency of flowing into and refilling the void, which restores functionality.
Not that we tend to stress our caps all that much with the voltages we're working at. I imagine the vast majority of our film caps are gonna be good for the lifetime of the pedals we make.
Electrolytics can drift down, and their electrolyte can leak out. High temp/high reliability caps tend to do this less.
Polymers are great for handing high ripple currents, but are a little less resilient than electrolytics when faced with an overvoltage condition. Also, they tend to be leakier. But with no electrolyte to dry out, they're great if one is concerned with longevity.
Tants will get very cross with you if you reverse polarity or go over their voltage rating. But they also seem to last forever when you treat em right.
Ceramics won't heal themselves, but if you don't subject them to voltages above their rating they tend to be pretty robust.
Honestly: the only ones I'd worry about are electrolytics when it comes to longevity. If I'm working on a pedal that's, like, 30-50 years old I'll check the electros just to make sure they haven't drifted out of spec.
jessenator
Well-known member
IDK if you were telling to my comment, sticky, but I was thinking along the lines of comparing like for like; poly vs poly. How does jB compare to kemet, kemet to tdk, to wima, etc. just on one type of cap.
Stickman393
Well-known member
I gotcha. In truth, I don't think it really matters all that much.
Film caps are naturally robust. Electrolytics would be an interesting test case, though.
It's the sort of test that would need to be done with extreme rigor to eliminate any natural variability from component to component, and from batch to batch.
In terms of performance in a circuit: most polyester caps are made from PET, though PEN caps are available. I imagine some variance exists between construction methods, though I would presume that all modern PET caps are likely to be similar enough for our purposes.
Maybe some variance in ESR? I imagine there will be more variance between the smaller metalized versions and the larger non-metalized versions. But that just gets back to differences in things that are not related to brand.
Imma say...*shrug*?
Film caps are naturally robust. Electrolytics would be an interesting test case, though.
It's the sort of test that would need to be done with extreme rigor to eliminate any natural variability from component to component, and from batch to batch.
In terms of performance in a circuit: most polyester caps are made from PET, though PEN caps are available. I imagine some variance exists between construction methods, though I would presume that all modern PET caps are likely to be similar enough for our purposes.
Maybe some variance in ESR? I imagine there will be more variance between the smaller metalized versions and the larger non-metalized versions. But that just gets back to differences in things that are not related to brand.
Imma say...*shrug*?
jdduffield
Active member
I think those tropical fish caps look awesome. I’d like to build something with those someday.
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