Kliche Mini worked... and now no sound?

dangosp

New member
Hello,
I recently built the Kliche Mini, assembled in the enclosure, and got it working perfectly, which I was very happy with as a first build. Maybe the 4th or 5th time I played it, all of a sudden I have no sound both bypass or turned on. I read through some past forum questions to try and get a handle on this myself, resoldered around the IC holders, studied the schematics as best I could understand them, built an audio probe, and now I'm stuck!
The circuit turns on, led lights up, no sound at all. Testing with the audio probe, I can get audio From In, R1, C1, and pin 3 of IC1, where there it dies. Not sure its relevant, but I tried swapping the TL072 IC's (IC1 and IC2) and then I get no audio out from C1.
I measured the DC on both TL072's and the TC1044SCPA and got the following:
IC1-
1- 3.4
2- 3.4
3- 7.3
4- 0
5- 8
6- 8
7-8.6
8- 9.1
IC2-
1-7.7
2- 7.7
3-8
4-8
5- 8
6-8
7- 7.9
8-8.3
IC3-
1- 9.1
2- 9.1
3- 0
4 - 9.1
5- 8
6-8.6
7- 8.6
8- 9.1

Sorry for the long winded post, I was so excited that I got this pedal working right out the gate, it sounded incredible with my bassman...and then not!
Thanks in advance....

Photos incoming....
 
I have a few TL072s to try, I'll have to source a new 1044. Should I replace them all at the same or try a new 1044 first? Really appreciate the help, this is driving me batty. Good news is I think I've got a better handle on the inner workings. Next pedal I'm definitely using lower heat solder, melting plastic is no fun. As I'll be ordering a new 1044, what common parts are best to stock up on?
 
I have a few TL072s to try, I'll have to source a new 1044. Should I replace them all at the same or try a new 1044 first? Really appreciate the help, this is driving me batty. Good news is I think I've got a better handle on the inner workings. Next pedal I'm definitely using lower heat solder, melting plastic is no fun. As I'll be ordering a new 1044, what common parts are best to stock up on?
I would go with a new 1044, but it won’t hurt to stock up on TL072s. I like the 4558s as well. When I first started out, I took about 5 projects and ordered about 3 or 4 times as many parts as I needed, if you think you’re in it for the long haul, that’s a good starting point. One thing to keep in mind, no matter how many parts you have on hand, you’re always going to need one more part you don’t already have. 🤣
 
BTW when you say you have continuity, does that mean you're using the continuity tester on your meter (BEEEEEP) or just looking for non-open circuits maybe w/ resistance? I'm still thrown by the continuity between pins 1 and 8 (direct to +9v and GND via C17), 3 (direct to GND), 5 (direct to -9V and GND via C18) and 8 of IC3 with no IC in there. There aren't many places to short +/-9V to ground.
Do you get continuity between pins 1,3, 5, and 8 with other GND points on the board? (like the incoming connection, jacks, etc)
 
you’re always going to need one more part you don’t already have
truth!

Other stuff to stock up on that you'll probably always need (and are cheap in quantity):

ICs: I got a big package of these IC sockets, much better quality than the ones I got from Tayda.

Diodes - 1N4148 aka 1N914, 1N5817 (in many builds as a reverse polarity protection diode).

Resistors - you can get one for $0.25 or 100 of them for $2 from Mouser. I guess at Tayda they're 0.015/ea in whatever quantity.
In terms of which values, you could get pretty good coverage getting resistors from 1K-1M in "E6" values (which would be ~
20 resistors I think) or E12 (~40 resistors). The E-whatever is how many values are in each order of magnitude so for example,
E6 is 1.0, 1.5, 2.2, 3.3, 4.7 and 6.8.

LEDs - they're super cheap from Tayda, 2-3 cents each.

Capacitors - stocking up on lots of box-style film capacitors is on the expensive side so I don't get TOO many
of these but it's nice to have extras.
 
Let's rewind and reassess.

Maybe the 4th or 5th time I played it, all of a sudden I have no sound both bypass or turned on.

First, when you have bypass sound but nothing when the pedal is on, it's a classic sign that something is shorted from 9v to ground on the pedal. The kliche has buffered bypass though, so if something is shorted, it will also cut the sound when the pedal is off.

I followed your directions, and with the charge pump out, I got continuity from pin 1to 3, 5, and 8.

Being that you have verified a short to ground with your measurements of the IC3 with the 1044 chip out, it's pretty conclusive that a short is your problem, and the 1044 is likely fine, or at the very least not the source of the problem.

I looked very closely at the IC holders, and the charge pump holder looked suspicious, so I desoldered it and cleaned up around it, applied the charge pump directly and audio tested with no result.
Not sure its relevant, but I tried swapping the TL072 IC's (IC1 and IC2) and then I get no audio out from C1.
I would recheck all of your sockets. This could be a clue. Maybe one of them has a cold solder joint or the socket itself is damaged. It's possible the pins inside the socket are causing the short. Anything intermittent is very suspicious, especially since you mentioned the issue with your soldering iron not being hot enough, and then being too hot. As a rule of thumb, you want to solder with maybe 750-775F, pretty hot, but only apply heat for a very short amount of time. You should be putting the iron on the parts, then maybe 1-1.5 sec later apply solder, then remove the iron once the solder flows. The trick is a lot of heat, but for a short amount of time. Just enough to get the parts hot enough for the solder to take, then when you see the solder melt and conform to the shape of the leads, pull the heat out.

The circuit turns on, led lights up, no sound at all. Testing with the audio probe, I can get audio From In, R1, C1, and pin 3 of IC1, where there it dies.
That makes sense because pin 4 of IC1 is where it gets its power, which is shorted with 1, 3, 5 and 8, (of IC3) so you wouldn't get any sound after pin 3 (because IC1 isn't getting any voltage due to the short). I don't think the audio probe is going to be much help with this one.

Your best bet is to check out the sockets for the IC's, remove them if you can, and inspect their pads closely. I wouldn't worry about the 1044 at this point. Eliminate those variables first and see where you are
 
FWIW I now use a magnifying glass to check solder pads after soldering all the parts to the board. I have always had excellent eyesight and now wear glasses but still have excellent eyesight. And yet some joints which look good to the naked eye reveal themselves as not so good when seen under a magnifier.

And I recently got a new tip for my soldering iron as the old one was starting to struggle to make a good joint. The new tip has made a huge difference. Soldering is so much easier now! I would have swapped it sooner had I known.
 
BTW when you say you have continuity, does that mean you're using the continuity tester on your meter (BEEEEEP) or just looking for non-open circuits maybe w/ resistance? I'm still thrown by the continuity between pins 1 and 8 (direct to +9v and GND via C17), 3 (direct to GND), 5 (direct to -9V and GND via C18) and 8 of IC3 with no IC in there. There aren't many places to short +/-9V to ground.
Do you get continuity between pins 1,3, 5, and 8 with other GND points on the board? (like the incoming connection, jacks, etc)
Looking for non open circuits. My meter only beeps in diode mode. The continuity mode shows the voltage being introduced by the meter or open line.
Any other specific spots you might suggest that might be bridged to ground I should look for?
I'll check those points and report back...
 
Let's rewind and reassess.



First, when you have bypass sound but nothing when the pedal is on, it's a classic sign that something is shorted from 9v to ground on the pedal. The kliche has buffered bypass though, so if something is shorted, it will also cut the sound when the pedal is off.



Being that you have verified a short to ground with your measurements of the IC3 with the 1044 chip out, it's pretty conclusive that a short is your problem, and the 1044 is likely fine, or at the very least not the source of the problem.



I would recheck all of your sockets. This could be a clue. Maybe one of them has a cold solder joint or the socket itself is damaged. It's possible the pins inside the socket are causing the short. Anything intermittent is very suspicious, especially since you mentioned the issue with your soldering iron not being hot enough, and then being too hot. As a rule of thumb, you want to solder with maybe 750-775F, pretty hot, but only apply heat for a very short amount of time. You should be putting the iron on the parts, then maybe 1-1.5 sec later apply solder, then remove the iron once the solder flows. The trick is a lot of heat, but for a short amount of time. Just enough to get the parts hot enough for the solder to take, then when you see the solder melt and conform to the shape of the leads, pull the heat out.


That makes sense because pin 4 of IC1 is where it gets its power, which is shorted with 1, 3, 5 and 8, (of IC3) so you wouldn't get any sound after pin 3 (because IC1 isn't getting any voltage due to the short). I don't think the audio probe is going to be much help with this one.

Your best bet is to check out the sockets for the IC's, remove them if you can, and inspect their pads closely. I wouldn't worry about the 1044 at this point. Eliminate those variables first and see where you are
Very detailed analysis. I was thinking of removing the other two holders, I will definitely do that first and replace. This lead free solder I was using just doesnt melt fast enough to flow quickly, so the parts were heating too much, especially the plastic holders. I replaced it with a much better flowing lead solder.
I didn't see any when I removed the IC3 holder, but I would not be surprised if the solder flowed around the plastic and shorted the pins.
How uncommon would physical thermal damage to the pcb occur? Just trying to mentally work out the possibilities.
 
FWIW I now use a magnifying glass to check solder pads after soldering all the parts to the board. I have always had excellent eyesight and now wear glasses but still have excellent eyesight. And yet some joints which look good to the naked eye reveal themselves as not so good when seen under a magnifier.

And I recently got a new tip for my soldering iron as the old one was starting to struggle to make a good joint. The new tip has made a huge difference. Soldering is so much easier now! I would have swapped it sooner had I known.
I was using the macro mode and light on my phone, made everything look glaringly amateur. I did not see any obviously poor joints, but I did reflow a few blobs just in case. I was trying to inspect under the IC holders as I was already suspicious of these areas, but couldn't get a good look there. I think the plan of removing these and rechecking is the best next course.
I started using a fine tip point while soldering but it didn't introduce enough heat fast enough so I settled on a slightly larger blunt point tip. Seems to work well enough.
 
Let's rewind and reassess.



First, when you have bypass sound but nothing when the pedal is on, it's a classic sign that something is shorted from 9v to ground on the pedal. The kliche has buffered bypass though, so if something is shorted, it will also cut the sound when the pedal is off.



Being that you have verified a short to ground with your measurements of the IC3 with the 1044 chip out, it's pretty conclusive that a short is your problem, and the 1044 is likely fine, or at the very least not the source of the problem.



I would recheck all of your sockets. This could be a clue. Maybe one of them has a cold solder joint or the socket itself is damaged. It's possible the pins inside the socket are causing the short. Anything intermittent is very suspicious, especially since you mentioned the issue with your soldering iron not being hot enough, and then being too hot. As a rule of thumb, you want to solder with maybe 750-775F, pretty hot, but only apply heat for a very short amount of time. You should be putting the iron on the parts, then maybe 1-1.5 sec later apply solder, then remove the iron once the solder flows. The trick is a lot of heat, but for a short amount of time. Just enough to get the parts hot enough for the solder to take, then when you see the solder melt and conform to the shape of the leads, pull the heat out.


That makes sense because pin 4 of IC1 is where it gets its power, which is shorted with 1, 3, 5 and 8, (of IC3) so you wouldn't get any sound after pin 3 (because IC1 isn't getting any voltage due to the short). I don't think the audio probe is going to be much help with this one.

Your best bet is to check out the sockets for the IC's, remove them if you can, and inspect their pads closely. I wouldn't worry about the 1044 at this point. Eliminate those variables first and see where you are
Pin 4 of each dual opamp is ground, pin 8 is V+ which should measure around 9v.
 
How uncommon would physical thermal damage to the pcb occur? Just trying to mentally work out the possibilities.
It's really more of an issue when removing parts, ie when applying heat for too long, and usually it's just a solder pad that gets ripped up. But physical damage is the kind of thing that would break connections, rather than shorting them, so I wouldn't worry about that for now.
 
Well, I removed the holders, which was a chore.. I do not like this solder, doesnt want to get sucked out or flow to braid.😬 I believe a socket or two might have come out.
I now get continuity only on IC3 pins 1 and 8. Anything else I should check for continuity again?
I tried checking voltages with all ICs out, this is what I got.
IC1-
1. 0
2. 0.15
3. 0
4. 0
5. 9.15
6. 9.15
7. 8.5
8. 9.2
IC2-
1. 8.9
2. 0
3. 9.2
4. -0.02
5. 9.2
6. 0
7. 8.8
8. 8.6
IC3-
1. 9.2
2. 1.5
3. 0
4. 0.6
5. -0.03
6. 0
7. 0
8. 9.2

I'm waiting to install new holders before rechecking with ICs back in. Oh and also bridged the led leads and burned that out, luckily I have spare.
 
I've burned out circuit traces on a few of these PCBs when removing parts. I've successfully found them and jumpered them with small bits of wire. A few times I thought about just starting over. The good news is that these PCB projects are built to stay together. The bad news, that makes them hard to remove parts, when required or desired.
 
Ok, that's definitely a step in the right direction! You should be good to go after this. Take a really good look at your board where the sockets were and clean it up with isopropyl alcohol and Q tips. I would also test for continuity in both the sockets you took out, as well as the TL072's, esp across pins 4 and 8. Or in the case of the sockets, any two adjacent leads.

If any solder pads came out then use your continuity checker again and trace the next component in the path. You can either splice in a trimmed off lead, or if the component is a resistor or capacitor, remove it and install a new one, but leave the lead long and bend it around to meet where the solder pad used to be, like this:
UGXLjmS.jpeg
 
I do not like this solder, doesnt want to get sucked out or flow to braid.😬

BTW are you using extra flux? Especially with lead-free/high-temp solder, the only correct amount of flux is "more".
Some extra flux helps solder wick take up the solder much easier.

For flux, I really like the Stirri stuff. I don't like the V2/V3, it is stinky, but the ASM stuff doesn't smell bad and works great (and is cheapest anyway!)
 
Solder braid is my go to and I'll put some extra flux on it before I heat it up to soak the solder up off a pad. I have a solder sucker as well, but I haven't had as much success with it vs the braid right on a solder pad.
 
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