Very high soldering temperatures and components/boards

[jameuwissen]

I appreciate everyone's input here. 15 seconds is definitely an outlier, but something does seem off as it is always definitely more than the 1-3 seconds per lead. And yes, Darwin- that is the correct solder, but I have it in 0.8mm. I never really considered that, but especially for lead free, should I look at getting 3mm? Would be easier to transfer heat, take less time to get a smaller mass of wire to melt, right?

For my own learning, just I want to summarize a few things to make sure I'm understanding and thinking this through correctly- Is it possible that even though my irons thermostat reads >830 F, that due to some combination of a dirty/oxidized/spent tip and some even mild inaccuracies in my irons thermostat I may be actually transferring a more "appropriate" amount of heat (at the expense of efficiency and probably oxidizing the tip), and actually be OK for the component? At this point, I no doubt need good, quality practice with a soldering iron. I would definitely trade buying a few extra soldering tips while learning than ruin components/boards.

Until I figure out this heat issue and improve my technique, I want to test the components one at a time as I apply them. I figure take the time and be patient early to prevent more frustrating troubleshooting later, especially if the heat is impacting the components.
Regarding that, another novice question - I tested the three 1k resistors in the attached pics (havent trimmed the extra leads yet) with a Fluke 70 series ii multimeter, they are coming out reading OK (998 for 1k's with 1% tolerance). So..... am I right in that they seem to be OK and survived my soldering? To my beginner eyes, the board and the components seem to be OK, visually.

To follow up, as I get into adding and testing the caps and other components, would testing continuity between the leads of the individual component be best? Basic question, I know, I just want to make sure I'm going about this correctly.

Again, thanks so much for all of your time and responses.

 

[jameuwissen]

For me, switching to lead-free was about tracking tiny pieces of trimmed solder around the house (on my clothes, on my feet, etc).
When I'm trimming leads, especially under pots where I want them to lay flat, I trim them close to the board and sometimes cut some of the solder blob along with the lead. It can be hard to prevent those little pieces from flying off in random directions.

This is my totally my rationale, too. I have small kids of my own + occasionally extra daycare kids running all around the house. I can definitely wash my hands, keep a good, clean work space, but I have a low threshold for allowing a rogue clipping, or any desoldering work finding it's way to somewhere it shouldn't be. I'm hearing that if I can just keep working on technique, get good enough with an iron, plenty of people have success with lead free.

 

[z2amiller]

due to some combination of a dirty/oxidized/spent tip and some even mild inaccuracies in my irons

You should send us some pictures of your tip. Just the tip.

To my beginner eyes, the board and the components seem to be OK, visually.

The soldering looks pretty good. A proper solder joint basically looks just like a Hershey's Kiss.

You might add a touch more solder, and/or add some flux. I really like using the Stirri Tacky Flux (I use the UHF, the 30g syringe
is like a lifetime supply for the occasional pedal builder - effective and not too smelly/smoky). Flux helps the solder flow and adhere
better. There's almost certainly flux inside the core of your solder, but a little extra can really help it flow. You can see on some of
your resistors that some of the solder has wicked through to the top side -- that's good, you want a small amount of solder to flow
up top. (Not too much else you risk it flowing underneath stuff like IC sockets)

Testing is going to get more complicated the more stuff you get in the board. With a couple of resistors in there, you're
testing them in isolation, but as more stuff gets on there, you're going to be involving more components in your measurement
since it's in a circuit and the measuring device doesn't 'know' that you're just trying to measure across the resistor you're
attached to -- it'll also measure the resistance of the rest of the connected network. And also your tester will need to have
modes to test diodes, capacitors, etc. (e.g. you won't measure continuity across a capacitor unless it's broken)

 

[jameuwissen]

You should send us some pictures of your tip. Just the tip.



The soldering looks pretty good. A proper solder joint basically looks just like a Hershey's Kiss.

You might add a touch more solder, and/or add some flux. I really like using the Stirri Tacky Flux (I use the UHF, the 30g syringe
is like a lifetime supply for the occasional pedal builder - effective and not too smelly/smoky). Flux helps the solder flow and adhere
better. There's almost certainly flux inside the core of your solder, but a little extra can really help it flow. You can see on some of
your resistors that some of the solder has wicked through to the top side -- that's good, you want a small amount of solder to flow
up top. (Not too much else you risk it flowing underneath stuff like IC sockets)

Testing is going to get more complicated the more stuff you get in the board. With a couple of resistors in there, you're
testing them in isolation, but as more stuff gets on there, you're going to be involving more components in your measurement
since it's in a circuit and the measuring device doesn't 'know' that you're just trying to measure across the resistor you're
attached to -- it'll also measure the resistance of the rest of the connected network. And also your tester will need to have
modes to test diodes, capacitors, etc. (e.g. you won't measure continuity across a capacitor unless it's broken)

Tip pic incoming....
In looking at them, yeah, they look super burned and in terrible shape. I should add that as I was working with them, and noting that it was getting harder and harder to keep them clean, get the solder to melt, I would try to switch out tips. I was trying all of the usual methods to clean them- slightly damp sponge, brass wool, re-tin with solder wire basically between each component, I even tried using tip tinner. I tried keeping them clean, turning off the iron between components to try to reduce the wear on the tips. I ultimately had the most luck with the smaller chisel tip- as some folks recommended earlier.
You can see there is some solder that literally just melted and then cooled on some of the tips (see the Right-most, and middle-left tips)... so yeah, these tips are not transferring heat. These tips look like this after the aforementioned heat, plus only fully filling out one Mahayana (I havent tested it yet**), plus the few resistors on that second board. So really, minimal work to get to that condition. This still gets back to the initial trouble- even brand new, it still took significant heat to get the wire to melt - nothing in the 700's F would even get it to melt directly to the iron- which again is wild given the wire's specs.

I'll look to pick up some additional flux, thanks for the rec. I was kind of wondering if I still needed to find the sweet spot with adding flux- my wire does have 3.5%. Given how much trouble I was having just getting the soldering wire to melt directly on the iron tip, as I was going I was wondering if adding additional flux (beyond the 3.5% in the wire, which seems like a lot? please correct me if I'm wrong) would act to rob my tip of heat? Once I did get the wire melted, it seemed to flow pretty good.

Regarding the testing, that is exactly what I was wondering- given I'm building out a circuit, is there really a good way to measure things in isolation as I go? Or am I going to have to wait until I have the board fully populated?

** Regarding the first Mahayana- I have an Auditorium, but that was the first thing I ever tried soldering up, and I know the soldering on it looks like complete garbage. My fear is that if I wire up the first Mahayana to the auditorium and try it, if it doesnt work I wont know if it's the Mahayana or the Auditorium that isnt working...smh, I'm learning...

 

[Feral Feline]

I have been soldering with my Hakko at maximum temperature for YEARS, and always did with any soldering station. I have soldered hundreds of germanium transistors, MN3007, MN3005, digital stuff, everything… never damaged a single component. Use good solder, work your soldering technique, use good sense and you and your components will be just fine. I know of pedals I build more than 15 years ago that are running just fine.

So how does your success and 15-year-old-pedals-that-still-run translate to solving/fixing the OP's problem?

How does a newb know what's good solder, or what "work your soldering technique" even means, or know what "good sense" is within this context?

Clearly the OP's 8-15 seconds of time on heating component and PCB is outside of the bounds recommended by the manufacturers of the solder, the PCBs' maker, components-foundries and soldering-station manufacturer not to mention the amassed experienced experts.

---

@jameuwissen

0.8mm is fine, the skinniest I use is .5, but I've also got .6, .8 and 1mm — the latter is what I started out with and used for ages before getting some skinnier gauged solder-wire and I still use 1mm depending on the job. I don't know anyone using .3mm for through-hole builds, maybe some SMD experts are using that (I don't even know if solder comes in .3mm). Again, .8mm is great for all-round usage, IMO.

As was mentioned by z2amiller: generally speaking you won't be able to measure components in circuit. They need to be measured prior to be populated on the board, and once on the board you can trace for continuity component-to-component.

ALSO mentioned by z2amiller in post #3, is trying some different kit. I whole-heartedly agree with that; You should make a concerted effort to borrow/try someone else's known-good soldering-iron/station. That would give a strong indication whether it's faulty technique or faulty equipment. I suspect you've got a bad 926 clone. The first soldering-station I bought, after having started out on a cheap solder-pencil, was a 926 clone of the Hakko, and it didn't work right from the get-go. I went back to the solder-pencil 'til I could afford a reliable brand of solder-station.


It's not so long ago that I was trying to get the hang of soldering, and my associated issues of learning don't even come close to the problems you're experiencing — So while your technique may not be great (mine still isn't), the problem seems to go beyond merely technique issues.

Nonetheless... You mentioned practicing your technique — make a bunch of patch cables. You need them for all the pedals you're going to make, and patch-cables are dead-easy to test/diagnose problems. I drilled a scrap of 2x4 wood with a bunch of 1/4" holes to hold several jack-plugs at a time and made a big batch of soldered patch-cables all in one go. Need more practice and have enough patch-cables? Make some more for friends.


Tip-Tinner: it's used for rejuvenating well-used tips. I'm no expert, but I don't think your tips have been in use long enough to need re-tinning. Save the tip-tinner for later when you've built a few +-/dozen pedals. The tips looked okay, keep them "tinned" in-between uses, ie a blob of solder on them (not tip-tinner).


You might be able to test sections of a big build, but the Mahayana isn't all that complex nor big — so test the components before you stick them into the PCB, build and test the fully popped Mahayana on your Auditorium.

Speaking of which, to make sure your Auditorium is working properly you can test your Auditorium with a commercially-made known-working pedal.



I think you've got a dud-machine, and looking for/finding band-aids isn't going to resolve the core issue(s).

 

[derevaun]

Those tips look fine to me, and the solder joints look OK as well. It may be a problem with the station <-> tip connection? FWIW 0.8mm is the thickest I'd use on a PCB. 0.5mm melts and flows a little bit faster, I think. Those are very personal considerations, like soldering temperature itself. But it seems like the station isn't heating the tips the way it thinks it is.

 

[z2amiller]

Honestly, those tips don't look too bad and it sounds like you're keeping them clean. It's possible that they're garbage tier and the tinning isn't taking. You might be keeping them _too_ clean - you want a little bit of melted solder on the tip, the melted solder helps to melt other solder. If you're super meticulous about getting every bit of solder off between joints, it could be counterproductive. Also this has gotta be taking you like hours with all of the swapping out tips since I imagine you have to wait for the whole thing to cool.

How willing are you to throw some additional money at this problem? I kind of hate these old school soldering tips. They're basically just a removable sleeve of metal around a nonremovable sleeve of metal around a heating element so the temp control is more challenging. If you are willing to throw some money at the problem, I'd recommend an iron with C245 / T245 style tips. In these types of irons, the heating element is integrated with the tip very close to the actual contact point. You can also easily remove/replace them while they're still hot, if you do choose to swap them out (but honestly for 95% of jobs just get a properly sized conical or chisel and keep it on for everything). They're also nice in that they have an inductive cradle that sleeps the heating element down to 100C when it's in the base - they heat up within ~4 seconds of lifting from the base so the tip is only at full temp when it's actively in use.

The YIHUA 982-III and WEP 982-V look like decent budget options, small footprint and under $80. I have the FNIRSI DWS-200 and it works great. If I were getting a new station today I'd probably get the Aifen A9 HD, it's nicer than the FNIRSI and seems to take more standardized handles.

Here is a good selection of C245 tips in non-stupid sizes. Some of those kits I linked come with really stupid tips (like 0.2mm bent conical tips in case you're soldering 0402 resistors at home or something)

If you find a C245 tip shape you really like and feel spendy, you can get a super-high-quality JBC tip for about $30-50 - they do make a difference but the cheapo ones do >=90% as well as the expensive JBC tips.

re: testing, IMO just solder it all together. Build/buy an audio probe + your multimeter will sort out 90% of problems right quick. I have the MAS Effects DIY testing tower with the tone generator and it's awesome for testing pedals.

 

[Erik S]

I don't know anyone using .3mm for through-hole builds

I use .3mm for everything

Weller WSW SnPb (T0051403399) Solder Wire, Dia: 0.3 mm / 0.012 in, Wt: 100 g / 3.527 oz, Alloy Sn60Pb40, Flux content 2.2% - Amazon.com

Weller WSW SnPb (T0051403399) Solder Wire, Dia: 0.3 mm / 0.012 in, Wt: 100 g / 3.527 oz, Alloy Sn60Pb40, Flux content 2.2% - Amazon.com

www.amazon.com

 

[pricklyrobot]

I now use a Hakko with a digital display, but before that for many years I used a Weller knock-off (Tenma brand) that just had a dial with hash marks.

If I was using a new type of solder (I did use lead free a few times, but ended up going back to leaded), I would get the dial ‘in the ballpark’ then turn it up in very small increments until it was hot enough to easily ‘slice through’ a piece of solder held out horizontally. This was my cue that everything should flow smoothly and I wouldn’t have to hold my iron on any components for more than a second or two.

If you follow this same procedure with your iron, and the display is showing an irrationally high temperature, I think the only conclusion is that something is mis-calibrated. I think some irons have a recalibration procedure, not sure about yours.

But if the error is consistent, like it always reads 100° hotter than you think it should when you arrive at ‘slicing temp’, and it seems to maintain that temp throughout a soldering session, then it seems like you should be able to use it anyway

If the temp seems like it’s fluctuating, then that might be more indicative of a bad thermostat, and I wouldn’t try to use it in that case.

 

[Guilherme Collateral]

So how does your success and 15-year-old-pedals-that-still-run translate to solving/fixing the OP's problem?

How does a newb know what's good solder, or what "work your soldering technique" even means, or know what "good sense" is within this context?

Clearly the OP's 8-15 seconds of time on heating component and PCB is outside of the bounds recommended by the manufacturers of the solder, the PCBs' maker, components-foundries and soldering-station manufacturer not to mention the amassed experienced experts.

---

@jameuwissen

0.8mm is fine, the skinniest I use is .5, but I've also got .6, .8 and 1mm — the latter is what I started out with and used for ages before getting some skinnier gauged solder-wire and I still use 1mm depending on the job. I don't know anyone using .3mm for through-hole builds, maybe some SMD experts are using that (I don't even know if solder comes in .3mm). Again, .8mm is great for all-round usage, IMO.

As was mentioned by z2amiller: generally speaking you won't be able to measure components in circuit. They need to be measured prior to be populated on the board, and once on the board you can trace for continuity component-to-component.

ALSO mentioned by z2amiller in post #3, is trying some different kit. I whole-heartedly agree with that; You should make a concerted effort to borrow/try someone else's known-good soldering-iron/station. That would give a strong indication whether it's faulty technique or faulty equipment. I suspect you've got a bad 926 clone. The first soldering-station I bought, after having started out on a cheap solder-pencil, was a 926 clone of the Hakko, and it didn't work right from the get-go. I went back to the solder-pencil 'til I could afford a reliable brand of solder-station.


It's not so long ago that I was trying to get the hang of soldering, and my associated issues of learning don't even come close to the problems you're experiencing — So while your technique may not be great (mine still isn't), the problem seems to go beyond merely technique issues.

Nonetheless... You mentioned practicing your technique — make a bunch of patch cables. You need them for all the pedals you're going to make, and patch-cables are dead-easy to test/diagnose problems. I drilled a scrap of 2x4 wood with a bunch of 1/4" holes to hold several jack-plugs at a time and made a big batch of soldered patch-cables all in one go. Need more practice and have enough patch-cables? Make some more for friends.


Tip-Tinner: it's used for rejuvenating well-used tips. I'm no expert, but I don't think your tips have been in use long enough to need re-tinning. Save the tip-tinner for later when you've built a few +-/dozen pedals. The tips looked okay, keep them "tinned" in-between uses, ie a blob of solder on them (not tip-tinner).


You might be able to test sections of a big build, but the Mahayana isn't all that complex nor big — so test the components before you stick them into the PCB, build and test the fully popped Mahayana on your Auditorium.

Speaking of which, to make sure your Auditorium is working properly you can test your Auditorium with a commercially-made known-working pedal.



I think you've got a dud-machine, and looking for/finding band-aids isn't going to resolve the core issue(s).

It translates as “search videos on good soldering technique before soldering, specially more complicated projects and don’t overthink the overheating the components part”. I didn’t quote his original post directly, and my comment was about the overall stuff. That was a really uncalled animosity on your part, I was just trying to be helpful.

 

[Guilherme Collateral]

I know I used an anecdotal reference, but we're on a forum, not exactly an academic environment. The OP asked about soldering temperature, and I answered EXACTLY the question in the thread title. Besides, DIY implies experimentation, trial, and error. It's all part of the process.

But your response seemed quite personal toward me. If you have any issues to resolve with me, I recommend sending me a private message. I have never spoken to any forum member in that tone, @Feral Feline

 

[Feral Feline]

It translates as “search videos on good soldering technique before soldering, specially more complicated projects and don’t overthink the overheating the components part”. I didn’t quote his original post directly, and my comment was about the overall stuff. That was a really uncalled animosity on your part, I was just trying to be helpful.

Profuse apologies.


Guilherme, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your builds — they are amazing and I aspire to some-day raise my own bar to somewhat close to your level.


I apologise for coming across so poorly, I've no excuse for such tone — especially with someone I truly look up to and admire.
I was frustrated by what seems to me to be technical problems with the OP's solder-iron, and that the discourse in the thread hasn't focused enough on that. I don't know why I singled out your post over any other, but I deeply regret displaying any negativity to you or in the thread whatsoever.


I thought it best to apologise publicly, as I cannot just simply undo the harm done by deleting or modifying my previous post — and I honestly don't have a thing against you.

You've always treated me with respect, and I am truly sorry I let my respect for you falter and to have burned bridges here.

Apologies to the general populace of the forum.

Apologies also to the OP, @jameuwissen — for derailling your thread in such a manner; this is one of the best forums if not the best forum on the Web and the people here are generally great. Wishing you success in sorting out your technical-soldering problems, whatever they may be.

Sincerely,
FF

 

[Passinwind]

---

@jameuwissen

0.8mm is fine, the skinniest I use is .5, but I've also got .6, .8 and 1mm — the latter is what I started out with and used for ages before getting some skinnier gauged solder-wire and I still use 1mm depending on the job. I don't know anyone using .3mm for through-hole builds, maybe some SMD experts are using that (I don't even know if solder comes in .3mm). Again, .8mm is great for all-round usage, IMO.

FWIW, I’ve come to prefer 0.5 mm solder for both through hole and the relatively larger format SMD parts I mostly use these days. 0.015” = 0.38 mm. and is readily available, and I’d probably prefer that for 0805 and SOIC parts, but I get Bro Deals on .020/.5mm solder so that’s what I use most of the time. Free is a good price, after all.

I have around a dozen different tips for my analog Hakko 888 and I swap especially the smaller ones quite often, as running out of thermal reserve tends to create exactly the sort of problems the OP is experiencing. I’ve seen some pretty bogus Hakko knockoffs, especially the 936 based ones. Buy once, cry once…

 

[Guilherme Collateral]

Profuse apologies.


Guilherme, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your builds — they are amazing and I aspire to some-day raise my own bar to somewhat close to your level.


I apologise for coming across so poorly, I've no excuse for such tone — especially with someone I truly look up to and admire.
I was frustrated by what seems to me to be technical problems with the OP's solder-iron, and that the discourse in the thread hasn't focused enough on that. I don't know why I singled out your post over any other, but I deeply regret displaying any negativity to you or in the thread whatsoever.


I thought it best to apologise publicly, as I cannot just simply undo the harm done by deleting or modifying my previous post — and I honestly don't have a thing against you.

You've always treated me with respect, and I am truly sorry I let my respect for you falter and to have burned bridges here.

Apologies to the general populace of the forum.

Apologies also to the OP, @jameuwissen — for derailling your thread in such a manner; this is one of the best forums if not the best forum on the Web and the people here are generally great. Wishing you success in sorting out your technical-soldering problems, whatever they may be.

Sincerely,
FF

Hey man! No hard feelings. First of all, thanks a lot for the compliments, I’ve been following your builds here for years and really like how you go about the pedals and the way you contribute to the forum (I must say I was really surprised by the previous answer)… everyone goes thru bad days or moments and it reflects on how we act. Thank you for this .

I sure could be more specific answering the direct questions by the OP, but my line of reasoning was based on lots of other posts I see by people asking or talking about the solder temperature thing. I used to overthink it, but with good solder, an always clean tip (that’s REALLY important), I find that soldering using higher temperatures usually translate as a faster heating process, the solder flows, adheres to the component and the PCB and you end up with LESS chance to overheat and damage components and the board. But you’re right, re-reading the whole thing it seems like the OPs soldering iron is acting up. I had the same soldering station and it used to work just fine!

 

[Alan W]

A step that I take when populating boards is to pull the leads taut (at an angle) and then trim them to about 1/4 inch long. This serves mainly to reduce the extra wire, which is just a heat sink, and also makes it easier to get the iron tip at the attitude I want it at with less forest in the way. Then I go round and trim everything.*

Possibly out of paranoia, but I also just solder one lead of each component as I make the rounds, and then do the second side of each, the notion being to give them a chance to cool down. These modern boards have also made soldering easier; I remember sometimes needing 10 seconds to get a lead hot enough due to the huge amount of ground-plain copper that would soak up all the heat.

Soldering is really one of my favorite parts about building. Getting a good iron (well, station) is important. Once you know you like doing this stuff, save up if needed. Something like the 888 is still less expensive than most pedals.

Editted: * after soldering