Kliche Mini - Which Capacitors Affect Tone?

[jdduffield]

Which capacitors in the Kliche Mini affect the tone?

I know for sure C15 affects tone. Wondering if other caps impact it as well? (btw-The reason I’m asking is because I have the StewMac Ghost Drive with the same diodes and it sounds different. I’m trying to get their sound closer matching by making manual adjustments to the tone.)

 

[BuddytheReow]

Other than the power supply section, they all affect the tone in some way, shape, or form if modified. Is there a goal you are trying to accomplish? Your question is very vague.

 

[jdduffield]

Other than the power supply section, they all affect the tone in some way, shape, or form if modified. Is there a goal you are trying to accomplish? Your question is very vague.

I added more detail to my question above. It just sounds a little bit like there is a spike in the upper mid range. Almost like Queen, which is a great tone, but I’m going for more of a warmer tone.

 

[GizzWizzKing]

Unfortunately stewmac doesn't provide a schematic, though they do say that the project is an original clone and they don't seem to allude to any mods, but you could go off of the project instructions to see if there are different cap choices and then try to figure out which is which.
Unless you have golden ears difference in part tolerance likely wouldn't be audible so either the builds are different or it was possible there was an error or substitution in one of the builds.

 

[Nostradoomus]

Unfortunately stewmac doesn't provide a schematic, though they do say that the project is an original clone and they don't seem to allude to any mods, but you could go off of the project instructions to see if there are different cap choices and then try to figure out which is which.

the stewmac board is a custom branded one using Robert’s layout so they should be the same I’d think!

 

[jdduffield]

In the Ghost Drive it looks like I used some MLCCs vs regular ceramics. Wonder if that would affect it very much.

 

[GizzWizzKing]

As long as it was in spec I don't think that would do anything. You can read up on mlccs here and get some opinions about using them in the audio path but for my money I can't hear a difference.

How do the circuits sound different?

 

[jdduffield]

As long as it was in spec I don't think that would do anything. You can read up on mlccs here and get some opinions about using them in the audio path but for my money I can't hear a difference.

How do the circuits sound different?

The Kliche Mini is a bit more mid-range in comparison. The other one sounds more even, and to my ears translates to a warmer, fatter, fuller sound. Something I am going to try is experimenting with the caps and diodes. I’ve purchased some single pin sockets and plan to swap parts and listen. I was wondering what caps are directly in the audio path to pinpoint the ones to socket, but it seems like ALL are affecting it in some way based on some comments. When I first plugged it in, an electrolytic cap burned out. It is replaced. But, I wonder if there is something else going on with the pedal. It works, just the tone is a bit sharp in the middle.

 

[darwin999]

The sound differences could be due to differences in actual values rather than capacitor composition or construction, as many capacitors are ±10% tolerance (some are even ±20%). Also, diodes can have large variances in their characteristics as well.
And I assume that you have re-checked all your resistor and cap values...

 

[jdduffield]

So, I tried using sockets on the diodes and tried several different ones, but that is not the issue and made little difference in the honky mid-range thing I’m trying to fix.

I ended up starting over. In fact, today I build another one from scratch. I built it to spec and it sounds the same as the first attempt. I take some comfort in knowing that I’m building the pedal correctly. It is consistent and works, just not the tone I’m trying to achieve. And strangely enough, not the tone of my Ghost Drive, which has the same schematic. My guess is the parts were better than what I’m using, but I can’t figure out which parts.

To put this in perspective, I’ve already purchased 20 Kliche Minis to build as gifts for friends. I’m calling it the Midas (get it?, a touch of gold). So, I’m trying to get it right before I build these all out. I can’t tell if it is a quality of parts thing, or if I need to modify it altogether … basically asking advice.

I’ve posted a picture of both (the Kliche Mini I built today and the StewMac I built a year ago). Can you look at these and tell me what is different that is likely affecting tone? I haven’t done much with the caps aside from ruling out electrolytic caps as the cause. I tried a 2.2n and even a 1n in C15. It helped make the tone knob more airy but the honky tone is still present. It might be one of the other film box caps but I don’t know.

At this point, I’m realizing that “maybe” what I need to do is seek advice on how to modify the part values. Basically, I’m after a warmer fatter tone instead of this midrangy, almost nasally honk. If I were to just flat out modify it (swap parts out experimentally), what are some good ideas to try that would affect tone? (I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t know if the play is to get better quality parts or to change the values I’m using.)

I should add that the pedal sounds perfect to me until I creep up the gain knob and the drive character starts kicking in.

 

[Nostradoomus]

I'm sure, as it's been said, it comes down to part tolerances (possibly the tone potentiometer +/- 20% is having an effect because that's a decent swing if one is out 20% and one is bang on tbh. I've never measured tayda pots vs true alphas). You have some options:

1) To match everything you would have to desolder the components from the board you think sounds best and then measure and sort tons of components to make 20 of them the exact same. Bad times

2) Try playing around with bumping up C15 (6.8n or so)

3) Just build all 20 as is because other people probably won't notice and will appreciate your gift regardless lol

 

[jdduffield]

Just build all 20 as is because other people probably won't notice and will appreciate your gift regardless

You’re probably right. Haha!

 

[Nostradoomus]

I know what it's like to get super focused on the minutiae that I hear...other people don't lol. It would be super interesting to see how all 20 of them compare to each other if you order all the parts from the same batches etc, and measure the pots and all. Sounds like a lotta work though.

 

[Nostradoomus]

(I wouldn't do it)

 

[jdduffield]

I’ll add that, in all fairness, the pedals do sound similar. I’m fine tuning somewhat subtle nuances. I use words like “nasal honk” only to describe the frequency I’m hearing a spike in, but it isn’t a huge difference. It is probably around 500-800Hz somewhere.

(This particular batch has Stompbox pots for the B10Ks.)

 

[jdduffield]

and measure the pots and all

For what it’s worth, I did measure all the resistors today. (Except for the pots, haha.) Some were a little off, a little over 5% but nothing drastic. I mainly was double checking that I didn’t get Ohms and KOhms mixed up.

 

[Nostradoomus]

Sounds about right for 20% haha

 

[Feral Feline]

...
I’m calling it the Midas (get it?, a touch of gold).
...

No. Please, do explain.



You should breadboard the circuit, and play with altering values.

Don't forget it's not just the caps, you may need to alter a resistor's value along with an associated cap to affect the desired result.

I strongly recommend building or at least breadboarding Chuck D Bones bass version, and follow along the changes with the schematic and that will help you to understand the circuit better and where you may want/need to make changes.

For instance, doing so would help you narrow down where the "honk" is coming from, the clean feed or the dirty channel. Increasing C4 would help increase clean bass, whereas increasing C7 will help warm the tone when the gain is "dimed".

You did say "...the pedal sounds perfect to me until I creep up the gain knob ...", so maybe C7 is the key and it's done and dusted.
Maybe combine that C7 augmentation with a slight increase in C8, which also would darken the dirty channel...

Here's a list of Chuck D. Bones' bass mods:

• C2 1uF Increase bass feeding into dirty channel & bass bleed
• C3 10uF Increase bass subharmonics in bypass mode
• C4 150nF Increase clean channel bass
• C7 330nF Increase bass when Gain is dimed
• C8 560pF Darken dirty channel slightly
• C9 10uF Increase bass feeding the clipping diodes
• C12 15nF Increase mids when Gain is around noon
• C13 47F Reduce mid scoop when Gain is at zero
• C15 6.8nF Move Tone range down to include the upper mids
• C16 10uF Increase bass subharmonics when the pedal is engaged
• R7 3K3 Increase clean channel volume
• R14 10K Increase bass bleed
• VOL A10K Improved sweep at lower volume settings

Lastly, I'll add that your friends' ears and gear are different than yours, so chasing that last 2% may not be necessary as I think each one will be well chuffed to receive such a generous gift!

 

[jdduffield]

Please, do explain.

So many Klon clones are gold because the original Klon was gold. (The Archer, Tumnus, etc.)

In the fairytale, everything that King Midas touched turned to gold.

Side note: I don’t like gold color pedals as much as other light pastel colors (crème, mint green, surf green, baby blue), so I was trying to think of a way to name the project where I’d use light green and just a hint of gold. I figured out that I like gold knobs on the light green, which is perfect because the user touches the knobs (supporting the theme “everything touched turns to gold”). Also, I’ve always felt like the Klon, when used the way most use it, with just a little gain and lots of makeup level, it makes your setup sound just a little more expensive, which also supports the name. (I overthink things. I realize this. Haha.)

Here is the first sample (attached). I’m working on improving the color and sharpness of the graphics, but it gives you a rough idea of where I’m headed.

 

[jdduffield]

Here's a list of Chuck D. Bones' bass

Thank you for this. Lots here to explore.