SOLVED Boneyard delegate ratio not working

[zeropluszero]

I built the delegate boneyard.
I have finally got a looper pedal so I could record something and then tinker with the pedal...all controls except Ratio seem to be working.
I've tried lots of combinations of the pots and playing but no difference where the Ratio is set.
Now, I'm by no means a guitar god, and frankly don't necessarily know shit about what I'm building, just figured a compressor would be something I didn't have.

I have been testing with a Tayda LDR and a GL5516 I got from pedalpcb - no difference. Tried a 5mm green led and a yellow one, when it's plugged in I measured the resistance on the LDR and it is moving, was below 10k in full light and when I shade it it does go higher. same with the pins on ratio potentiometer, when I spin the pot it changes the resistance reading on my multimeter...even swapped in a tl072, got sound but nothing from ratio pot.
I know this is meant to be a subtle compressor, and I'm not going to claim to have great ears...maybe if someone could even tell me a combination of the other pots I should use that should give me a less than subtle difference from the ratio pot and I would know its working?

I haven't tested it in full darkness, but I can tell a significant volume difference between playing with the lid on the enclosure and the lid off so I assume the LDR & LED are doing something.

 

[Nostradoomus]

Straighten your led out so it's in the right visible path of the LDR. Get it closer and see what happens. Seat it straight up or pointing towards the LDR.

 

[zeropluszero]

Yeh it was seated better, this is just my shit reattachment after removing the socket- I have a desoldering pump but I'm not great at it. I'm almost to buying a new PCB and starting again.
Might reflow all the stuff and if that doesn't do it I'll can it.

 

[zeropluszero]

I got a new PCB, new components, built it up and I swear the ratio is still not doing shit.

 

[Stickman393]

Got an idea. Not sure if it's gonna pan out, but...

That OPA2134. Did you get it from Tayda?

That batch code (1AZ14QW) is something that seems to pop up a little too regularly for my tastes. A quick Google search shows some Facebook ads with OPA2134'S with that batch code on 'em.

I'm pretty sure I've got a few from Tayda with that batch code as well. I'll check when I get back, but it wouldnt surprise me if they're counterfeits.

I dunno exactly why a counterfeit opa2134 would brick the ratio control, but I'd try swapping that thing with a TL072 and see if that makes a difference. If it does, see about sourcing a new OPA2134 from mouser or digikey or similar.

 

[zeropluszero]

Its likely from tayda yes - I may have a different one in my sherwood, i can try that out or a tl072

 

[Chuck D. Bones]

You can try a TL072, but I think swapping opamps will not solve the problem. Whatever opamp is installed, as long as it functions like an opamp, the general behavior of the circuit will be the same. Because of the high impedances in the gain stage, it needs to be a FET-input opamp to bias correctly.

Swapping parts at random is the slowest and least reliable method of finding and correcting the problem. If that's how you intend to proceed then I cannot help.

Have you ever played thru an EQD Warden? Maybe find one at a guitar store and try it out? Consider the possibility that the ones you built are working correctly and your expectations or control setting make you think it's not working.

There are three other likely causes:

1. The RATIO pot is not 100K.
2. You are testing it wrong.
3. You built it wrong.

Let's face it, the common factor in these two builds is you.

The Delegate may have some settings that make it subtle, but it is also capable of extreme compression and sustain. I would not characterize it as a subtle compressor.

Start with these settings:
RATIO full up
SUSTAIN at 5 (noon)
TONE at zero
ATTACK at 3 (10:00)
RELEASE at 3 (10:00)
LEVEL at noon (adjust as req'd for the appropriate volume)

Make sure the box is closed up tight. If any light leaks in, all bets are off.

Turn your guitar volume up all the way. A compressor is not supposed to react you your guitar's volume knob the same way that a Fuzz Face does. Once you get used to the compressor and find settings you like, then you can use other guitar volume settings. When you play with these settings, the compression and sustain should be obvious. Try the pedal engaged and disengaged and listen for the difference in the attack and sustain.

SUSTAIN sets the maximum gain when the note decays.
RATIO sets the minimum gain when you have maximum signal, i.e. when you first strike a note or chord. Because of this, the effect of the RATIO pot is most noticeable at the beginning of the note or chord. RATIO won't do much of anything when the note decays because the LED is going dark and the LDR resistance will be greater than the RATIO pot.

ATTACK and RELEASE determine how quickly the compressor responds to the beginning (attack) and end (release) of the note or chord. ATTACK & RELEASE also limit the maximum LED brightness. Because of that, they interact with the RATIO knob. If you set ATTACK or RELEASE too high, the LED does not attain the required brightness and you get less compression, the same as if you turned RATIO down.

Not every combination of knob settings will be useful. If you don't have a clear picture of what the knobs do and how they interact, it's easy to get confused and stuck. Until you get used to the pedal, leave ATTACK & RELEASE at 3 and RATIO above 5.

 

[zeropluszero]

I've just pulled the pedal over while I test, I can see the led lighting with my play. I noted that the single note thing I was testing with didn't make much led spike (I know it's a lot less led that I can see) but I played some harder power chords so it was more obvious that the led was working.

I pulled the dmm out, the ratio is zero when turned up, and 92k or something when turned down. About 50k in the middle so that's working.
I did this not super proper test with the LDR in obvious light and with my hand over it, the LDR is changing resistance

Just as well so we're clear, I wanted to run at 18v so I have no charge pump, and have bridged d101 and 102 (as per https://forum.pedalpcb.com/threads/omitting-chargepump-from-delegate-boneyard.21469/ - I've just realised I was supposed to omit c101 and 102...I can get those removed...)

 

[zeropluszero]

I had not read Chuck's reply before posting...I will test that and report back.
I am fully prepared that this is something I've stuffed up, but would like to learn from this. Most of my other pedals have gone fairly easily.

 

[Chuck D. Bones]

No need to remove C101 & C102, they're not doing any harm.

Shine more light on the LDR and see how low the resistance goes. You don't need a laser, a flashlight will do.

To measure maximum resistance, you should pull the opamp out of the socket. No telling how much stray current is sneaking thru the opamp. And turn off all of the lights. Seriously, you'll see a difference.

 

[zeropluszero]

I'll get back to you with how I go.
I guess what I wanted from my above testing was that the ratio pot is definitely doing something, and same with the LDR.

 

[zeropluszero]

You can try a TL072, but I think swapping opamps will not solve the problem. Whatever opamp is installed, as long as it functions like an opamp, the general behavior of the circuit will be the same. Because of the high impedances in the gain stage, it needs to be a FET-input opamp to bias correctly.

Swapping parts at random is the slowest and least reliable method of finding and correcting the problem. If that's how you intend to proceed then I cannot help.

Have you ever played thru an EQD Warden? Maybe find one at a guitar store and try it out? Consider the possibility that the ones you built are working correctly and your expectations or control setting make you think it's not working.

There are three other likely causes:

1. The RATIO pot is not 100K.
2. You are testing it wrong.
3. You built it wrong.

Let's face it, the common factor in these two builds is you.

The Delegate may have some settings that make it subtle, but it is also capable of extreme compression and sustain. I would not characterize it as a subtle compressor.

Start with these settings:
RATIO full up
SUSTAIN at 5 (noon)
TONE at zero
ATTACK at 3 (10:00)
RELEASE at 3 (10:00)
LEVEL at noon (adjust as req'd for the appropriate volume)

Make sure the box is closed up tight. If any light leaks in, all bets are off.

Turn your guitar volume up all the way. A compressor is not supposed to react you your guitar's volume knob the same way that a Fuzz Face does. Once you get used to the compressor and find settings you like, then you can use other guitar volume settings. When you play with these settings, the compression and sustain should be obvious. Try the pedal engaged and disengaged and listen for the difference in the attack and sustain.

SUSTAIN sets the maximum gain when the note decays.
RATIO sets the minimum gain when you have maximum signal, i.e. when you first strike a note or chord. Because of this, the effect of the RATIO pot is most noticeable at the beginning of the note or chord. RATIO won't do much of anything when the note decays because the LED is going dark and the LDR resistance will be greater than the RATIO pot.

ATTACK and RELEASE determine how quickly the compressor responds to the beginning (attack) and end (release) of the note or chord. ATTACK & RELEASE also limit the maximum LED brightness. Because of that, they interact with the RATIO knob. If you set ATTACK or RELEASE too high, the LED does not attain the required brightness and you get less compression, the same as if you turned RATIO down.

Not every combination of knob settings will be useful. If you don't have a clear picture of what the knobs do and how they interact, it's easy to get confused and stuck. Until you get used to the pedal, leave ATTACK & RELEASE at 3 and RATIO above 5.

1. I haven't owned a proper compressor. I do have the HX One, but don't think it has a model of an optical compressor, so likely a moot point. I can try to get to a store at some point.
2.I think the ratio pot should be fine, I did measure it to about 92K when all the way off, and about 1ohm when all the way up
3. Boxed up, using those settings and playing (from a looper) I can turn the pedal on and off and it's bright, metallic and ringy when off, and when turned on its duller, which I'm pretty sure is the effect of the attack and release. Guitar volume all the way up.
4. I still can't be sure I'm hearing anything different if I roll the ratio down and back.
5. I'll keep playing, I'll have to find some YouTube clips or something to make it more obvious.

6. I pulled the tl072, measured in full brightness with the flashlight and it was I think 10k, putting my hand back over it, it did crawl to over 2M. (And then wondered why it wasn't working when I forgot to put it back in lol)

 

[zeropluszero]

Ok I just did some further testing, actually used my death metal machine for some high gain tapping, and I can hear a slight difference in the ratio between 12 and 5pm...like, I don't think it's much but I do actually think it's there.

 

[CA138]

Got an idea. Not sure if it's gonna pan out, but...

That OPA2134. Did you get it from Tayda?

That batch code (1AZ14QW) is something that seems to pop up a little too regularly for my tastes. A quick Google search shows some Facebook ads with OPA2134'S with that batch code on 'em.

I'm pretty sure I've got a few from Tayda with that batch code as well. I'll check when I get back, but it wouldnt surprise me if they're counterfeits.

I dunno exactly why a counterfeit opa2134 would brick the ratio control, but I'd try swapping that thing with a TL072 and see if that makes a difference. If it does, see about sourcing a new OPA2134 from mouser or digikey or similar.

Probably completely unrelated to the issue in this pedal, but just letting you that 1AZ14QW OPA2134 are confirmed fakes.

 

[Stickman393]

Probably completely unrelated to the issue in this pedal, but just letting you that 1AZ14QW OPA2134 are confirmed fakes.

Chuck is correct about op amps being op amps: the most likely scenario here is that it would just be a cheaper re-labeled dual op amp.

If that's the case, then it shouldn't have any impact on the functionality of the ratio knob.

If it's not a dual op amp, that's where things could get weird. Ya never know.

The other question...are you testing using a clean setting?

Clean would be the way to test one of these things out. Distortion compresses your signal, adding a compressor to that can be like putting a hat on a hat.

 

[zeropluszero]

I was using a Squier tele with stock pickups, into a pod express on the Fender Princess amp.
I changed over to my Ibanez 8 with Fishman fluency, into the 5150 amp model.

Now I'm going to have to check the 2134 in my Sherwood too lol.

 

[zeropluszero]

Probably completely unrelated to the issue in this pedal, but just letting you that 1AZ14QW OPA2134 are confirmed fakes.

Can you link me to this? If it is I'd like to have Tayda replace or refund it.

 

[CA138]

Can you link me to this? If it is I'd like to have Tayda replace or refund it.

If Tayda supplied it, I recommend reaching out to them with an image and your order details. If they came from them, they should replace them. I am told there was a slip in procurement/testing somewhere recently and some fakes slipped through the cracks.

 

[zeropluszero]

Have you ever played thru an EQD Warden? Maybe find one at a guitar store and try it out? Consider the possibility that the ones you built are working correctly and your expectations or control setting make you think it's not working.

Unexpectedly got a chance to get to a store for a quick demo today - tried a Warden with a squier tele and a clean amp, I reckon the settings you'd given -
RATIO full up
SUSTAIN at 5 (noon)
TONE at zero
ATTACK at 3 (10:00)
RELEASE at 3 (10:00)
LEVEL at noon

Sounded pretty much exactly how my Delegate does - that is I don't notice very much when fiddling with the ratio between full and halfway.
I bumped a few other settings, landed on tone about 2pm, attack 12, release 1pm, level 9pm, sustain 2pm and fiddled with the ratio between 12 and 6 - it did sound a little more squished - so I think Im happy to call this as solved, if not so much solved as I think the pedal works the way it supposed to, and perhaps I dont ahve the ear for this like I thought I would.
if absolutely nothing else, I do quite like the sound of the attack and release softening my playing, so that's good enough for me.

My appreciation to all those that helped in the thread

 

[Nostradoomus]

compressors can be a fickle beast, doubly so if you aren't playing loud

 

[zeropluszero]

Which I'm definitely not doing... headphones or quiet room amp. so again, likely part of my problem.