Re-capping old pedals???

[ChrsGuit]

Ok, so I've heard some real off-the-wall stuff, but this takes the cake.
A very respectable gear repair page I follow on IG threw me for a loop today.

The owner was showing an old Boss Delay he had in his shop, and showed a walkthrough of him replacing all the Electrolytic capacitors...

Now obviously, Old amps (Fender, Marshall, etc need recapped every so many decades due to leakage, Electrolytic goop drying out, etc... but this is the first time I'd ever heard of someone recapping pedals. I always understood it that pedals (for the most part) don't pass enough voltage through them to warrant such maintenance... I asked about this and the response was that "Electrolytic datasheets list a shelf-life, therefore a pedal is subject to being serviced as one would an amp". I did some searching and found very little information on this. In one of the few forums I found (on Gpage), Analogman Mike himself weighed in saying it wasn't necessary unless a pedal was broken or misbehaving... or perhaps a pedal had been boxed up for many years unused and the caps possibly "dried up"...
Anyone care to weigh in on this, cause this is a new one on me...

Just curious if any of you guys have ever heard of such a thing, or is it simply "crystal lettuce" and "magic diode" pixie dust?

 

[benny_profane]

Was it stored in a car trunk in Arizona or made between 1999 and 2007?

The main issue with electrolytic caps, beyond electrical limits, is environmental conditions. The stated lifespan on data sheets is for operating at temperature extremes (as well as voltage rating).

Though, electros made between 99 and 07 had higher-than-average manufacturing issues leading to premature failure. But, as with any electro failure, it’d be preceded by loss of capacitance, increase in ESR, etc.

More than likely replacing them in that boss unit is pointless.

Capacitor plague - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Laundryroom David]

If the pedal works, I leave it alone

 

[RetiredUnit1]

I know that one of the reasons for reforming and/or replacing caps is that after playing them fairly regularly, then setting them on the shelf for 20 years, the electrolytics "go bad". Can't remember if it's crystallization or decrystallization, or perhaps the fairies need a place to spread their dust. But it's the NOT playing that makes them atrophy.....

 

[ChrsGuit]

Was it stored in a car trunk in Arizona or made between 1999 and 2007?

The main issue with electrolytic caps, beyond electrical limits, is environmental conditions. The stated lifespan on data sheets is for operating at temperature extremes (as well as voltage rating).

Though, electros made between 99 and 07 had higher-than-average manufacturing issues leading to premature failure. But, as with any electro failure, it’d be preceded by loss of capacitance, increase in ESR, etc.

More than likely replacing them in that boss unit is pointless.

Capacitor plague - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Just curious, as I've experienced this in a couple pedals over the years... I'd imagine such failures might begin to show if a pedal starts to sound different. Case in point, we played a summer gig on asphalt at a baseball stadium. They had us on the last outlet on the same circuit as the bathrooms (hand dryers) and concession stands with freezers and refrigerators and stuff... We got maybe three songs in as the crowd was getting intense and our volume started dropping badly... to the point my Marshall was almost bedroom volume and the P.A quit producing sound... Rain and thunder was moving in, so we went ahead and scrubbed the gig...
The powered P.A monitor was so hot that we had to wrap it in a moving blanket to carry it. My Marshall and the pedals on my board never sounded the same afterwards. I had the Marshall in the shop and they found nothing I had a Line 6 DL4, Line 6 MM4, and Line 6 DM4... and a way huge green rhino... at least one or two always on combined with the amp in one form or another... The sounded kinda bassy... slightly "muffled" I guess you'd say... and more noisy. I tried them in other amps as well with similar results... I replaced all my tubes, biased the amp. I bought new cables, new power supply... I only recently began to wonder if the pedals were the culprit when I got into building pedals of my own, especially realizing caps can cause issues.
After reading that about cap "servicing", I took the DL4 off the shelf and tested the big 1,000uf cap in it... it tested at 1,700uf...

 

[ChrsGuit]

I know that one of the reasons for reforming and/or replacing caps is that after playing them fairly regularly, then setting them on the shelf for 20 years, the electrolytics "go bad". Can't remember if it's crystallization or decrystallization, or perhaps the fairies need a place to spread their dust. But it's the NOT playing that makes them atrophy.....

Yeah, in amps they can dry up/crystalize... kinda like batteries left in a flashlight for years... The old Fender amp Electrolytic caps were cardboard and they were close to their shelf life expiration when Leo bought them. As I heard it, Leo got a surplus deal through his Army connections and bought a huge bulk lot of capacitors dating back to the Korean War... That's why you see the cardboard Mallorys all the way up into the 70's... much like the guitar pots he ordered ... Some Strats and Teles into the late 70's have 1966 dated pots because he bought so many

 

[RetiredUnit1]

Yeah, in amps they can dry up/crystalize... kinda like batteries left in a flashlight for years... The old Fender amp Electrolytic caps were cardboard and they were close to their shelf life expiration when Leo bought them. As I heard it, Leo got a surplus deal through his Army connections and bought a huge bulk lot of capacitors dating back to the Korean War... That's why you see the cardboard Mallorys all the way up into the 70's... much like the guitar pots he ordered ... Some Strats and Teles into the late 70's have 1966 dated pots because he bought so many

When I MET Leo one of the things he mentioned was buying a million feet of cloth wire. "I only bought that crap because I got a million feet of it for $1000".

I was 13 and had been playing guitar for 2 years. He had already sold Fender to CBS and was bringing a new amp and guitar for his buddy, my friend's dad to try out. He was not too pleased to hear I had a Rickenbacker, and not a Fender, lol....

 

[ChrsGuit]

When I MET Leo one of the things he mentioned was buying a million feet of cloth wire. "I only bought that crap because I got a million feet of it for $1000".

I was 13 and had been playing guitar for 2 years. He had already sold Fender to CBS and was bringing a new amp and guitar for his buddy, my friend's dad to try out. He was not too pleased to hear I had a Rickenbacker, and not a Fender, lol....

THAT'S AWESOME! Yeah, Leo was thrifty, but he also didn't skimp on quality and reliability.

 

[Cybercow]

TTH electrolyticic caps have a "working" life span measured in hours, not years. Typically between 1,000 & 5,000 hours. (Most cheap caps are rated at the 1,000 hr point. 5,000 hour life rated caps are more expensive.) Their shelf, (non-working), life is about 20 to 30 years as the compounds in them dry up over time, degrading the cap's specified usefulness. So yeah, if a pedal is over 30 years old, replacing its electrolytic caps is not out order. Heat & time are the natural enemies of electrolytic caps. Heat exacerbates the degradation & breakdown of electrolytic caps, shortening any specified use time.

So, IMO, no cake has been taken.

 

[Dirty_Boogie]

Also, since many guitarists leave their pedals in their pedal boards (which are powered by a DC brick), even if the pedal is not "on" (i.e., the LED is not lit) it is actually on all the time, just bypassed from the audio path. So, assuming you never power down your pedalboard, that's 744 hours/month of working use, or, up to 8,760 on hours in a year. Just something to consider.

Brian Wampler discussed this in this week's Chasing Tone podcast. The context was around replacing caps in original Klons, which are going on 25 years old now. The issue there is that those boards were all gooped, and you run a higher risk of completely damaging the board trying to get to a couple of electrolytics, than just doing some preventative maintenance on aging caps.

 

[RetiredUnit1]

THAT'S AWESOME! Yeah, Leo was thrifty, but he also didn't skimp on quality and reliability.

When he suggested that I could build clones of his amps when I got older, I said I didn't know anything about electronics, he said he was self trained!!!!!

My vintage 1968 deluxe reverb took a trip off the back of a truck when the driver decided to move while the gear was being loaded up. Said he "forgot" with the smell of booze on his breath, lol. The amp suffered no damage!!!! Amazing....Those old amps can really take a beating.....

 

[RetiredUnit1]

Also, since many guitarists leave their pedals in their pedal boards (which are powered by a DC brick), even if the pedal is not "on" (i.e., the LED is not lit) it is actually on all the time, just bypassed from the audio path. So, assuming you never power down your pedalboard, that's 744 hours/month of working use, or, up to 8,760 on hours in a year. Just something to consider.

Brian Wampler discussed this in this week's Chasing Tone podcast. The context was around replacing caps in original Klons, which are going on 25 years old now. The issue there is that those boards were all gooped, and you run a higher risk of completely damaging the board trying to get to a couple of electrolytics, than just doing some preventative maintenance on aging caps.

No problem @Robert will be happy to sell them a new board!!!!

I have a self built 16 x 18650 battery powered brick, I definitely turn it off after use. Recharged the batteries in December. Then again last week. Wonderful to have a long lasting battery supply...... Tesla uses the same battery in their car, and power tool battery packs have them inside as well with a BMS.

 

[ChrsGuit]

When he suggested that I could build clones of his amps when I got older, I said I didn't know anything about electronics, he said he was self trained!!!!!

My vintage 1968 deluxe reverb took a trip off the back of a truck when the driver decided to move while the gear was being loaded up. Said he "forgot" with the smell of booze on his breath, lol. The amp suffered no damage!!!! Amazing....Those old amps can really take a beating.....

Really. I knew Leo repaired army radios and audio equipment in the Army back in WW2, so it's very plausible he took that training and went a step further to complete builds. Many of the early Fender amp circuits were supposedly based heavily in old military equipment... Interesting that Marshall made their first amps by copying the Bassman using British military components... Just goes to show there's "nothing new under the sun". People rip on pedal clones and circuit updates, but essentially you can only follow so many initial recipes to generate sound from an electric guitar

 

[ChrsGuit]

Also, since many guitarists leave their pedals in their pedal boards (which are powered by a DC brick), even if the pedal is not "on" (i.e., the LED is not lit) it is actually on all the time, just bypassed from the audio path. So, assuming you never power down your pedalboard, that's 744 hours/month of working use, or, up to 8,760 on hours in a year. Just something to consider.

Brian Wampler discussed this in this week's Chasing Tone podcast. The context was around replacing caps in original Klons, which are going on 25 years old now. The issue there is that those boards were all gooped, and you run a higher risk of completely damaging the board trying to get to a couple of electrolytics, than just doing some preventative maintenance on aging caps.

That's very good to know... I guess that explains why some of my more heavily used pedals that stayed on my board for years began to fall out of favor. I always attributed it to my tastes changing over time, or (as mentioned) certain events that I KNEW there was a problem with power and felt they were just "fried"... I totally recapped my old DL4 last night (I already replaced it with the new DL4 mk2, so had nothing to lose), fired it up and it does seem to sound much better than before. Nearly all the caps were out of spec... a few SEVERELY over spec according to my component tester. The first 1,000uf was reading 1,700. I think a 220uf was up around 283... Acceptable is what, +/-5% or so tolerance?

 

[benny_profane]

The hour rating for electrolytic caps is at the extremes of the spec. Running a 35V cap at 9V in a room temperature environment with moderate humidity will last far beyond the stated 2,000 hours (or whatever). I don't think I've ever seen 'shelf life' published in a modern datasheet. The temperature extremes are very important for AEC and other stressful applications.

Electros are commonly +/-20%.

 

[RetiredUnit1]

The hour rating for electrolytic caps is at the extremes of the spec. Running a 35V cap at 9V in a room temperature environment with moderate humidity will last far beyond the stated 2,000 hours (or whatever). I don't think I've ever seen 'shelf life' published in a modern datasheet. The temperature extremes are very important for AEC and other stressful applications.

Electros are commonly +/-20%.

I just noticed your handle is Benny Profane, not Benny Propane, lmao. Thought it was a Hank Hill reference.....

 

[benny_profane]

I just noticed your handle is Benny Profane

V. - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[steviejr92]

Sewer Alligator Hunting mustve been terrifying......

 

[benny_profane]

Sewer Alligator Hunting mustve been terrifying......

It was a job.

 

[jimilee]

Also, since many guitarists leave their pedals in their pedal boards (which are powered by a DC brick), even if the pedal is not "on" (i.e., the LED is not lit) it is actually on all the time, just bypassed from the audio path. So, assuming you never power down your pedalboard, that's 744 hours/month of working use, or, up to 8,760 on hours in a year. Just something to consider.

Brian Wampler discussed this in this week's Chasing Tone podcast. The context was around replacing caps in original Klons, which are going on 25 years old now. The issue there is that those boards were all gooped, and you run a higher risk of completely damaging the board trying to get to a couple of electrolytics, than just doing some preventative maintenance on aging caps.

So they're back to discussing gear instead of insulting each other with Blake repeating everything Brian says, then Brian repeating what Blake says? I used to listen to that podcast all the time, but then they started that crap and I bailed.