Sanguine - Weak/Busted Treble?

[Shizdawg]

Hi everyone!

I completed my first pedal/electronics project in which I built the Sanguine distortion. Everything seems to work fine, but the treble leaves a lot to be desired. In the room, it has to pretty much be cranked all the way to start sounding aggressive, while all the way down makes this strange artifacting sound.

I've tested all the components and they seem to be operating as designed, so I'm wondering if there's a specific component I could replace in order to give the treble knob a lot more strength, as well as possibly shifting the frequency from around 2k to 4-6k?

A photo of the inside is attached and I've also made a demonstration video which you can watch here:

That video has audio from both the phone and the mic. The phone audio is more similar to the IRL sound, but in the room it still feels less aggressive than either. The pedal is also feeding straight into my peavey's power amp, just like how the real Revv G4 should be operated.

Worth noting that the midrange knob has a huge control spectrum and works great, and the bass works pretty well too. It's just the treble that makes the pedal feel super weak, or extremely mid-rangey when cranked all the way.

The spaghetti wiring is due to using a pre-existing enclosure and pots with the board (although all the pots have the exact same values as the sanguine schematic)

Thanks for your time!

 

[Elijah-Baley]

I have this circuit on veroboard, and I don't hear any lack of treble.
Did your pedal go directly in the power amp? In the return?
I have a Crate solid state amp, and I use my distortion pedal in the input of the amp because, for some reason, any drive/distortion pedal I have doesn't sound right with my amp. If I remember it has right some dull issue, I loss presence.
Did you try other distortion pedal directly in the power amp? Maybe your pedal is ok.
How does your Sanguine pedal sound in the input of the amp?
Later, if you need, we can see how the circuit can cut less treble.

 

[BuddytheReow]

I have this build and the same issue. The short answer is turn the volume down on the pedal and the volume up on your amp. I was fooled for the longest time thinking I had to crank all my pedals. Secondly, the pedal will have a bit more bass to it since it works well/was designed with down tuning.

 

[Shizdawg]

I have this circuit on veroboard, and I don't hear any lack of treble.
Did your pedal go directly in the power amp? In the return?
I have a Crate solid state amp, and I use my distortion pedal in the input of the amp because, for some reason, any drive/distortion pedal I have doesn't sound right with my amp. If I remember it has right some dull issue, I loss presence.
Did you try other distortion pedal directly in the power amp? Maybe your pedal is ok.
How does your Sanguine pedal sound in the input of the amp?
Later, if you need, we can see how the circuit can cut less treble.

Yeah I'm running into the power amp since the Revv G4 is more of a preamp than typical distortion pedal. It has lots of treble in the front of amp, but it doesn't sound very good there. I do have another preamp pedal that sounds amazing through just the power amp, with tons of treble to spare, and all the demos I've heard of the real G4 seems to have a ton of treble through a power amp as well.

I have this build and the same issue. The short answer is turn the volume down on the pedal and the volume up on your amp. I was fooled for the longest time thinking I had to crank all my pedals. Secondly, the pedal will have a bit more bass to it since it works well/was designed with down tuning.

I'll give that a go, though I might have to tweak since I'm using another preamp pedal on board and was going to switch between that one and this one for a "two channel" tone thing. Also don't you need less bass and more treble for downtuning? I had to boost my treble last time I went to drop A, though I'll give your suggestion a go as well.

Thanks for the help so far guys!

Another QQ; I was reading that you can half a capacitor value somewhere in the treble circuit to make it stronger, but does anyone know which one in the schematic could be modified?

 

[Elijah-Baley]

For baritone and downtuning guitar less bass helps to get on focus low notes. My built of the Revv G4 has enough low end, but not so much (the Triple Wreck has a lot of bass).
I'm not an expert, but I's say that Revv seems to be the new generation amp with tight bass. This is my opinion, right or wrong.

The Revv G4 is a pedal, and I figure that the main use is in front of the amp, but of course it can sounds good or bad to our ears. And it depends even from the amp. The thing you can use it as preamp is just one of the, often really good, possibility.
From the official we site:

«Plays nice with:
Combos, Heads, Pedalboard Rigs, in Effects Loops, w/ Cab Modeling.»

I have this build and the same issue. The short answer is turn the volume down on the pedal and the volume up on your amp. I was fooled for the longest time thinking I had to crank all my pedals. Secondly, the pedal will have a bit more bass to it since it works well/was designed with down tuning.

If you want I'd really like to read the long answer.
My amp (solid state not tubes) can't control the master volume, so if I put a pedal in the return I have just the pedal volume control. I guess the power amp has the volume "maxxed".
If you meant that lowering the volume pedal this will give more bass, I'm wondering if this is just the effect of the voltage divider of the volume pot in the pedal, this theoretically will cut some treble. Perhaps you made some confusion, maybe you wanted to say to keep the volume pedal at max (and don't cut any treble) and turn down the master volume amp.
Anyway, I'll wait the long answer.

Looking at the schematic in the Sanguine document built you can see: C11, C13, C26 all 100pF. You could try around 50pF, this will tame less treble. (C11 especially when the gain is high.)
Another 100pF, C3, you could leave off, or reduce it.
Others cap you can reduce or leave off are: C9 1nF, C15 10nF, C16 1nF.
Of course you can adjust some resistors (for example R19, R20), too, but maybe you'll have more collateral effects in the amount of gain.
Just pay attention to not trigger unwanted oscillation.
Of course if you can adjust all those parts to get a good sound in the power amp, but getting too much treble when you put the pedal in a input of the amp (in case you never need it).

 

[Shizdawg]

For baritone and downtuning guitar less bass helps to get on focus low notes. My built of the Revv G4 has enough low end, but not so much (the Triple Wreck has a lot of bass).
I'm not an expert, but I's say that Revv seems to be the new generation amp with tight bass. This is my opinion, right or wrong.

The Revv G4 is a pedal, and I figure that the main use is in front of the amp, but of course it can sounds good or bad to our ears. And it depends even from the amp. The thing you can use it as preamp is just one of the, often really good, possibility.
From the official we site:

«Plays nice with:
Combos, Heads, Pedalboard Rigs, in Effects Loops, w/ Cab Modeling.»


If you want I'd really like to read the long answer.
My amp (solid state not tubes) can't control the master volume, so if I put a pedal in the return I have just the pedal volume control. I guess the power amp has the volume "maxxed".
If you meant that lowering the volume pedal this will give more bass, I'm wondering if this is just the effect of the voltage divider of the volume pot in the pedal, this theoretically will cut some treble. Perhaps you made some confusion, maybe you wanted to say to keep the volume pedal at max (and don't cut any treble) and turn down the master volume amp.
Anyway, I'll wait the long answer.

Looking at the schematic in the Sanguine document built you can see: C11, C13, C26 all 100pF. You could try around 50pF, this will tame less treble. (C11 especially when the gain is high.)
Another 100pF, C3, you could leave off, or reduce it.
Others cap you can reduce or leave off are: C9 1nF, C15 10nF, C16 1nF.
Of course you can adjust some resistors (for example R19, R20), too, but maybe you'll have more collateral effects in the amount of gain.
Just pay attention to not trigger unwanted oscillation.
Of course if you can adjust all those parts to get a good sound in the power amp, but getting too much treble when you put the pedal in a input of the amp (in case you never need it).

Thanks Elijah! I'll experiment a bit with your suggestions and will let you know how it goes

I'm not too experienced reading schematics so I'm wondering what sort of effect would altering C20 or C19 (halving or doubling) give to the pedal? It looks like their placement more directly interacts with the treble with treble signal, and I'm curious to understand what their role could be?

Appreciate your time to help out on this one!

 

[Shizdawg]

So I've run some tests and this is what I've found regarding the Sanguine as a pre-amp (like how the original G4 is used)

1st screenshot is the EQ of the Sanguine going straight into an EQ with the treble all the way down



this 2nd screenshot is with the treble cranked all the way up. seems to even out the 6K region, but boosts a lot of upper mids (1.5-3K)



and this last screenshot is from my KSR Ceres with the treble sitting right at 12 o'clock



the Ceres is displaying a much fuller top end, what you would expect from an actual pre-amp. while the treble control on the Sanguine mainly effects the 6k region, and with it cranked, those high frequencies still don't exist while also boosting the midrange, making the Sanguine dark and lo-fi when running into a power amp or into an IR

not sure if this will help anyone, and I haven't tested a real revv G4, but I've been hunting for this kind of info on the web for a while now, so I'm posting my results in case anyone is interested

also, boosting with a high shelf before the signal hits an IR does help bring back some clarity to this pedal and makes the tune useable in a metal aspect. hopefully those mods Elijah mentioned improve the high frequency output! will post my results when I get around to them