The dreaded diode debate

[jhaneyzz]

OK... stop me if you've heard this one...

I've been building a lot of pedals lately that use germanium diodes.

I've got some of the rarest germanium diodes I've ever seen and they are cool as F@#$. Thanks Nathan...

I've built a Stockade with 8 different diode clipping options...

I've watched every YouTube diode comparison ever recorded.

Except for the volume difference brought on by the change in forward voltage... I can't tell a lick of difference.

I can definitely hear the difference in hard clipping, and I can convince myself that there's a difference in symmetrical and asymmetrical clipping (just barely) but not a difference in the "character" of the one (aside from the volume change)

Please... if I'm wrong, set me straight. but WTF?

 

[Alan W]

Try a few different guitars with it? Or plugging it into a different amp? I’ve been getting used to needing to re-evaluate lot of pedals lately, amazed at how some combinations make subtle changes and others really are jarring.

I'm not familiar with that specific circuit, but it may not be a great test bed for various diodes.

 

[manfesto]

I'm not familiar with that specific circuit, but it may not be a great test bed for various diodes.

The Stockade is based on the EQD Palisades, which is a modded TubeScreamer with a bunch of diode pairs on a rotary switch in the feedback loop, it’s honestly like the perfect test bed for various diodes

 

[jhaneyzz]

I've tried a LOT of different pedals with socketed diodes and just not hearing it.

Tube Screamers
OCDs
klons (especially klons)
Special K (EQD Speaker Cranker
RATs

I've got three electric guitars, two with P-90s, and one with humbuckers, so not a lot of options.

What is it that I'm supposed to hear when I switch from 1N34As to 1n60s or D9B, 4148, BAT41s and LEDs... (actually, I do thing LEDs are different, but basically closer to no diodes.)

 

[jhaneyzz]

The Stockade is based on the EQD Palisades, which is a modded TubeScreamer with a bunch of diode pairs on a rotary switch in the feedback loop, it’s honestly like the perfect test bed for various diodes

and that is exactly why I built it... So... what am I supposed to be hearing...

I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I would love to be a diode snob...

 

[jhaneyzz]

To my ear... with my Stockade, I can get the exact same tone from any set of diodes with only modifications to volume and gain.

What am I missing?

 

[owlexifry]

and that is exactly why I built it... So... what am I supposed to be hearing...

I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I would love to be a diode snob...

idk what anyone else does with drives, but for me i definitely hear differences when i use a drive as a boost (low gain, level max).

so, try goosing a high gain amp with your stockade/palisades thing - if you cant hear a difference - well that's on you - not us

 

[owlexifry]

To my ear... with my Stockade, I can get the exact same tone from any set of diodes with only modifications to volume and gain.

What am I missing?


View attachment 44012

i don't mean to be rude, but are you sure the rotary knob is working as intended?

i.e. have you compared/socketed diodes with a different pedal/circuit?

 

[jhaneyzz]

idk what anyone else does with drives, but for me i definitely hear differences when i use a drive as a boost (low gain, level max).

so, try goosing a high gain amp with your stockade/palisades thing - if you cant hear a difference - well that's on you - not us

You hear the difference between a 1N34A and a BAT41? After you adjust the volume, what, exactly do you hear.... I'm still waiting for the ah-ha diode moment...

 

[jhaneyzz]

i don't mean to be rude, but are you sure the rotary knob is working as intended?

i.e. have you compared/socketed diodes with a different pedal/circuit?

many times.

 

[owlexifry]

You hear the difference between a 1N34A and a BAT41? After you adjust the volume, what, exactly do you hear.... I'm still waiting for the ah-ha diode moment...

cant comment on those, haven't tried them.
silicon vs LED though, boy howdy, massive difference.

 

[jhaneyzz]

cant comment on those, haven't tried them.
silicon vs LED though, boy howdy, massive difference.

I do hear that one, as mentioned above.

 

[jhaneyzz]

I'm really trying here but "dude, you just don't get it" isn't helping. How do you describe the difference between a BAT41 and a 1N34A, better yet, any examples?

 

[jhaneyzz]

Sam, my pedal dog says he DEFINITELY hears the difference....

 

[jhaneyzz]

idk what anyone else does with drives, but for me i definitely hear differences when i use a drive as a boost (low gain, level max).

so, try goosing a high gain amp with your stockade/palisades thing - if you cant hear a difference - well that's on you - not us

I've heard for a lot of very authoritative sources that at low gain, the diodes are not even in the signal.

 

[eh là bas ma]

For me, in most cases, Ge diodes sounds a bit warmer and rounded on the edges. Perfect for vintage sounds or tube-like tones. Led sound different, less noticeable, more transparent, but in the same tube emulation spirit, warmth and round edges.

Silicon like 1N4148 or 1N914 are cleaner, sharper, bringing a bit more precision.

Mosfet clippers are somewhere between led and silicon, with its own flavor.

I think it's a bit like phaser sweeps : If you listen to 3 or 4 different phasers, set on low speed and high depth, connected after a distortion or a fuzz. You can hear that they all have their own character, their own color. The sweeps textures aren't exactly the same. It's subtle and probably unoticeable for unexperimented people, but very noticeable and very important once you are experimented and pay close attention to the sound. It's probably the same with reverbs, compressors, and every kinds of effects I guess.

 

[manfesto]

and that is exactly why I built it... So... what am I supposed to be hearing...

I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I would love to be a diode snob...

There’s not nearly as much in it as ad-copy writers would have you believe, so wouldn’t really worry about being a diode snob.

Fv is, like, obviously the most important aspect of diode selection since it determines the clipping threshold. There are other factors, like diode capacitance and knee, that are measurable differences, but for the purposes of guitar pedals don’t matter nearly as much as Fv.

That’s why you hear very little difference between a BAT41 and a germanium diode, both are clipping at around 0.3V. Most of the difference you will end up hearing can manifest in a bunch of small-and-inconsistent ways between a BAT41 and a germanium (and also from one germanium to another for that matter) is going to be nonlinearities caused by germanium being kind of an old crappy material - it won’t clip as consistently, it’ll be more likely to have capacitance weirdnesses, drift with temperature, etc. - but the overall behavior is largely the same.

All that said, clipping threshold *is* a big deal, because it determines headroom and feel (e.g. how hard you can play before clipping), and because a guitar isn’t a perfectly uniform white noise generator, some frequencies your guitar generates are going to be louder than others (in general mids and highs), and therefore they will hit the clipping threshold and clip earlier and harder, changing the perceived EQ.

If you recorded a looped guitar part and put it through the Stockade with LED clipping, then 1n4148s, then BAT41s, and then equalized the levels on the three clips, you should notice a change both in the EQ and the character of the crunchiness (which can sort-of be compensated for by playing with the gain control and essentially changing the overall amount of compression, but it’s not going to have the same dynamic range if you go that route).

 

[jhaneyzz]

There’s not nearly as much in it as ad-copy writers would have you believe, so wouldn’t really worry about being a diode snob.

Fv is, like, obviously the most important aspect of diode selection since it determines the clipping threshold. There are other factors, like diode capacitance and knee, that are measurable differences, but for the purposes of guitar pedals don’t matter nearly as much as Fv.

That’s why you hear very little difference between a BAT41 and a germanium diode, both are clipping at around 0.3V. Most of the difference you will end up hearing can manifest in a bunch of small-and-inconsistent ways between a BAT41 and a germanium (and also from one germanium to another for that matter) is going to be nonlinearities caused by germanium being kind of an old crappy material - it won’t clip as consistently, it’ll be more likely to have capacitance weirdnesses, drift with temperature, etc. - but the overall behavior is largely the same.

All that said, clipping threshold *is* a big deal, because it determines headroom and feel (e.g. how hard you can play before clipping), and because a guitar isn’t a perfectly uniform white noise generator, some frequencies your guitar generates are going to be louder than others (in general mids and highs), and therefore they will hit the clipping threshold and clip earlier and harder, changing the perceived EQ.

If you recorded a looped guitar part and put it through the Stockade with LED clipping, then 1n4148s, then BAT41s, and then equalized the levels on the three clips, you should notice a change both in the EQ and the character of the crunchiness (which can sort-of be compensated for by playing with the gain control and essentially changing the overall amount of compression, but it’s not going to have the same dynamic range if you go that route).

That is a freaking kick-ass response....

 

[Feral Feline]

Sometimes you just have to spend more time with things to familiarise yourself with them.

I remember when I was a kid hanging out with a friend who'd just got a Strat clone and I sat strumming the open strings flipping the 5-way switch back and forth trying to hear the difference. I could almost tell there was a difference, I thought there was a difference but didn't know what it was doing or how to describe the difference I heard — but it ALL sounded like a freq'n guitar.

I still can't tell just listening to a song whether the guitar part was played on a Strat (single-coils), or a Les Paul (humbuckers)... I mean, there's bass and organ and somebody screaming shrilly — how the fudgesicle am I supposed to know? BUT...

I can hear distinct different tones when I flip pickup switches around, now.


SO... can I hear the difference between the soft knee of the Ge diode compared to the sharper knee of the Schottky? Not yet. Maybe eventually, maybe never. Maybe it becomes more of a "feel" thing. I don't know.


I'm not a wine connoisseur, more of a wine kind-a-sewer ... I can't tell if the grapes that year were frostbitten, or what year, but I know when I taste wine whether I like it or it tastes more like vinegar...

 

[jhaneyzz]

Sometimes you just have to spend more time with things to familiarise yourself with them.

I remember when I was a kid hanging out with a friend who'd just got a Strat clone and I sat strumming the open strings flipping the 5-way switch back and forth trying to hear the difference. I could almost tell there was a difference, I thought there was a difference but didn't know what it was doing or how to describe the difference I heard — but it ALL sounded like a freq'n guitar.

I still can't tell just listening to a song whether the guitar part was played on a Strat (single-coils), or a Les Paul (humbuckers)... I mean, there's bass and organ and somebody screaming shrilly — how the fudgesicle am I supposed to know? BUT...

I can hear distinct different tones when I flip pickup switches around, now.


SO... can I hear the difference between the soft knee of the Ge diode compared to the sharper knee of the Schottky? Not yet. Maybe eventually, maybe never. Maybe it becomes more of a "feel" thing. I don't know.


I'm not a wine connoisseur, more of a wine kind-a-sewer ... I can't tell if the grapes that year were frostbitten, or what year, but I know when I taste wine whether I like it or it tastes more like vinegar...

I can do the wine thing far better than I do the diode thing... but I sincerely appreciate your well considered response. as always sir surly cat...