SOLVED Aion's Xenotron (Lovetone Flanger) Not sure if it's fully working ?

[eh là bas ma]

Hello,

I wonder if there is some issue with my Xenotron build, because it doesn't always fit the descriptions from the original manual and from Aion's instructions.

https://aionfx.com/app/files/docs/xenotron_documentation.pdf

https://aionfx.com/app/files/docs/lovetone-flange-with-no-name-manual.pdf

I have extra doubts about the Manual control : i can probably achieve some sort of chorusing and flanging effects, but i can't hear any phasing effect.

The modulation is most audible when Manual is fully CW, and it's more and more subtle as i turn it CCW.

Fully CCW, nothing but clean signal. I can get a faint modulation if i turn the Feedback fully CW, and if the BBD trimmer is set in a narrow aera of its rotation, where distortion can easily appear depending on the other settings.

Led 4 on the BBD daughterboard is a transparent green led, from musikding. That's the only one pulsating when Time is engaged. Led 2 and 3 are also lit, but steady.
When Space is engaged led3 stays steadily lit and led 1 and 2 are pulsating.

Looking at led 4 while turning Manual, the led goes from fully bright to fully turned off when Manual is fully CW. Turning CCW, the lowest point is brighter and brighter, until it only slightly pulses when fully CCW. Led 4 is always brightly lighting up at the highest point of the pulsation.

On my build, it's kind of hard to find a position on the BBD trimmer where i can have a modulation both quiet (no ticking, no distortion) and as effective as possible. It sounds like i have to sacrifice either a clean modulation, or the most audible and noticeable effect.
If i try to get rid of every distorting noise, i need to reduce the modulation strength. Instructions mention 11'. That the aera where the BBD is starting to work on my build, at 11' the modulation isn't clean at every settings. Around 2' the effect is more effective on the signal, but it saturates also more easily at some settings.

Here is a sound sample with the controls settings described in the comments :

https://soundcloud.com/ehlabas-ma-chaussure%2Flovetone-flanger-testwav

The controls are : Manual fully CW, Depth fully CW, Rate and Reaction (Feedback) around 12', Action (Mix) fully CW, Input Level fully CW. BBD Trimmer between 11' and 12'.
During the recording, i turn the trimmer to 2', after that, Manual is turned fully CCW, i turn up the feedback when Manual is fully CCW. Then i turn Manual back to fully CW.

I am a bit confused because, according to the original Lovetone manual and Aions instructions, it should be phasing with Manual going CCW, but they also say that there could be some dead aera at each ends of the Manual pot rotation...

"Manual
Determines the off-set value of the delay time. This gives
the default steady setting for delay time (when the Depth
is at zero). Short delay times (anticlockwise settings) will
give phasing. Short to medium delay times will give flanging
(with regen.). Medium to long delay times will give chorusing
and double tracking" (...)
"the noise factor very much depends
on the context of use. Indeed on many occasions it actually
adds interesting rhythmic and atmospheric articulation.
Some “dead” area at each extreme of this control is normal
and provides extra offset or “swing” for the CV/Pedal input.
Around these regions modulation depth will appear to be
reduced (or even non-existent) "

Does your Xenotron also behave like mine ?

Is it ok that Manual affects the modulation this way ? Less and less modulation going CCW ?

Should i look for some issue on my build ?

Every observations and suggestions are welcome !

 

[Big Monk]

Have you tried removing the white washer?

 

[comradehoser]

I'm pretty sure Aion's calibration instructions mention that it may not be possible to get rid of distortion at max input gain, especially with strong input signals, but that you can mostly address it with the input gain pot level

 

[chris.knudson]

Have you tried removing the white washer?

I believe a chrome bezel is also required to make this work properly.

 

[eh là bas ma]

Have you tried removing the white washer?

I believe a chrome bezel is also required to make this work properly.

In a difficult time, trying to understand a very complex circuit, when we are the most vulnerable, right before christmas, now is the time you choose to launch a surprise attack ?

Very characteristic of metal bezels worshipers and plastic-washerophobics, i guess. I already know what will be your next move, and it's doomed to failure. Nothing can stop the Plastic Ring, i'm afraid.

Just to humor your personal beliefs, i did try to activate the circuit without any plastic washer :
Each time i activate the effect, i can feel that it's hurting the 3PDT. I just hope i didn't damage the 3PDT's spring in this attempt. I will replace this footswitch just to be sure.

Then I tried with a metal bezel, because i always try to be more open-minded during christmas. The pulsating status led became suddenly very annoying, and i forgot to wear my protective glasses for this test.
The metal bezel also introduced some loud popping noise when the led was lighting up.
Thanks for the suggestions though.

I'm pretty sure Aion's calibration instructions mention that it may not be possible to get rid of distortion at max input gain, especially with strong input signals, but that you can mostly address it with the input gain pot level

Thanks for your reply !

You are right, i missed this part :

"The goal is a complete range of control with no clock ticking and minimal distortion. The BBDs have a
fixed amount of headroom, so there will eventually be distortion if the input signal is hot enough, but the
“Input Gain” control can compensate for high input levels so the distortion can be dialed out"

Did you listen to the sound sample ? Do you think it sounds close to your build ?

The modulation sounds kind of lo-fi on my build, i am not sure if everything is fully working... A simple confirmation would be welcome.

 

[comradehoser]

Eh la ba mas, c'est mais si si pis ici,

Pour le benefice de tout le monde je vais te le dire carrement en anglais:

Yeah, that's pretty much like mine. It will do right proper flange, chorus, and phase (and trem), but you have to mess about with the settings, which is what I encourage you to do. Sounds like you got your calibration trim down, just turn down the input gain a bit, and you're off to the cloud lands of modulation.

It is a crazy crazy pedal. You can get straight bumping self-generated techno sounds from it, "lo-fi" sounds (that are pretty hi-fi actually), and so much more.

 

[eh là bas ma]

Yeah, that's pretty much like mine.

Ô joie ! Grand merci !

That's a relief.

Now i can take my time to calibrate it with caution, without any doubts, and see what this stompbox can do.

Thank you very much, and merry christmas !

 

[comradehoser]

De rien, camarade.

Joyeux Noel ou que tu te trouves (l'Alabama, je suppose).

 

[Matopotato]

Of course I stumble on your name after "Hmm, wonder what my next build might be. Oh, this flanger looks challenging..."
I hope you Christmas is a good one with or without white washers or chrome bezels. Btw, Did you ever compare the Chrome with Nickel?
I tried to A/B them but I think my amp was too low to really hear the differenece.

I understand itnid challenging to dial an set it up considering that some pots takes you to unkown or even unwanted/unexpected places.
But how was the build itself? The build doc intro is a bit deterring, but we have both done a few challenging ones like Blueshift and Flintlock. (Did youndo Spectron?)
Does this compare?
Cheers and Bonne contiunation de Noël et une prosper anee nouveau.

 

[eh là bas ma]

Did you ever compare the Chrome with Nickel?

Nickel led bezels ? First time i hear about them. Probably expensive, shiny and a bit too much, like every metal bezels ?

I tried to A/B them but I think my amp was too low to really hear the difference.

Can't say i' m surprised. Maybe try again with a volume level above 190 dB, brand-new Seymour Duncan pickups, and gold-plated guitar cables ?

But how was the build itself?

It was a musikding's full kit. The building process was very enjoyable, especially the BBD daughterboard, and all the jacks wiring. I had some extra fun because i soldered the 3PDT board upside down : I really thought that everything was over before it was even started... Some simple and straighforward spaghetti wiring was required to make it work, it gave me lots of fun and so many doubts about the outcome.
I've learned to be extra careful with big pcb with many parts, so i made sure every components were all right before soldering. I tried to do the full houp-la-boum exemplary building process, eyes wide open, and many cofee cups to avoid any troubleshooting later.

I cleaned the pcb with some expensive solder residue cleaning spray that i recently bought at the local electronic shop. It's quite effective to get a perfect looking pcb and increase the health risks (eyes, skin, particles falling in my cofee cup, etc.), but the soldering pads are harder to reflow after using it. I guess the cleaning product is removing some of the flux from the soldering pads too. I had to suck off the old solder to be able to efficiently reflow any suspicious pads.

On the BBD sub-board, the connector pads are slightly harder to solder than usual, they are a bit tiny, there is quickly too much solder. The position of the bigger parts also matters, like the 10uF electro cap on the BBD pcb, in order to connect the small pcb on the main board.
If something protrudes too much, it won't fit.

(Did you do Spectron?)
[how] Does this compare?

Very different tools, i'd say. The Spectron is quite easy to use in many musical contexts, it's possible to add some enveloppe filtering effect on almost everything in a song, depending on the settings it can be very subtle or very noticeable.

Xenotron was a disappointment at first. As long as i tried to use it as i would use any other modulation, it felt less interesting and less effective than many other modulation circuits. Once carefully calibrated, it's able to do some chorusing/flanging/phasing effect, but i don't think that's its strong suit.

Even the controls were surprising for me. A few of them are like "fully CCW" when set in the middle of their rotation. A friend who built his own modular synthetizer (a generous and perfectionist mentor, who taught me how to build a stompbox) told me that it was a pretty common thing in the modular world. They call this a "bipolar control".

I only started to see a small portion of Xenotron's potential once i used it without any signal input. I put down the guitar and started using the xenotron like a signal generator. I played with feedback, depth, rate and the Manual controls to make the device self-oscillate. Then i used a delay in the loop section, another analog modulated delay after the xenotron, and a reverb at the end of the signal chain. That's where things got really interesting. It creates some sorts of high-on-drugs-bird sounds, noises from an other world. It reminded me of Klaus Schulze music style. I could almost hear some strange unknown creatures singing.

The "zero at the middle of rotation" potentiometer thing seems to be designed to be able to get the most of the self-oscillating feature. Xenotron's Reaction pot is probably the most interesting feedback control i've ever tried.

These sounds could be interesting on their own, but they could also be used as some sort of background noises with other instruments, to give some dreamy, psychedelic, out of space and psycho-active touch.
I intend to do some more experiments on these self-oscillating noises, combined with various circuits. Ten years ago, I would also have tried some LSD while playing with this device, but i already know how exhausting an LSD experience can be, so i probably won't, i'm already too old and too lazy for that now...

If you are looking for some flanger even better than A/DA flanger, i don't think it's possible, as far as i know.
A chorus better than MXR Stereo chorus, or some Boss chorus ? not possible neither.
Something unique, able to do its own thing ? Something inspiring that will lead you on a new experimental musical path ? Yes, that's it.

Happy new year to you too, Bonne année, bonne santé !

 

[comradehoser]

I think the only things that make it difficult is the number of parts which makes it more likely to make a mistake and harder to find it when you do. But I actually found the schematic pretty easy to understand conceptually. The PCB sandwich is also a bit technical, but not overly so. I didn't bother with pin headers, just used trimmed component legs and it worked great (not particularly straight, though)

Since I measure and drill all my enclosures, I'll have to say that this was a massive pain in the ass. There is very very little margin for error, particularly in this crowded board. Be aware that Aion looks to align their boards pretty much as close as possible to the bottom edge of the enclosure. I like to give 15mm to the center punch for foot switches but this was almost too much.

 

[Matopotato]

Nickel led bezels ? First time i hear about them. Probably expensive, shiny and a bit too much, like every metal bezels ?

Well I bought a Chrome before just to see... Slight difference side by side in the shine.

It was a musikding's full kit. The building process was very enjoyable, especially the BBD daughterboard, and all the jacks wiring. I had some extra fun because i soldered the 3PDT board upside down : I really thought that everything was over before it was even started... Some simple and straighforward spaghetti wiring was required to make it work, it gave me lots of fun and so many doubts about the outcome.

I've learned to be extra careful with big pcb with many parts, so i made sure every components were all right before soldering. I tried to do the full houp-la-boum exemplary building process, eyes wide open, and many cofee cups to avoid any troubleshooting later.

Yes, I am now measuring extra times, checking connectivity, and no bridges etc.

I cleaned the pcb with some expensive solder residue cleaning spray that i recently bought at the local electronic shop. It's quite effective to get a perfect looking pcb and increase the health risks (eyes, skin, particles falling in my cofee cup, etc.), but the soldering pads are harder to reflow after using it. I guess the cleaning product is removing some of the flux from the soldering pads too. I had to suck off the old solder to be able to efficiently reflow any suspicious pads.

I got a liter of IPA-1000 Isopropsomething and tried to clean with it, then let my PCB just lie there for a while and it ended up very nice. Should be no issue leaving it in for a while although it felt a bit scary at first...

On the BBD sub-board, the connector pads are slightly harder to solder than usual, they are a bit tiny, there is quickly too much solder.

I raised my temp from 382 to 450 C. A clear improvement and I have to be faster as well.

I only started to see a small portion of Xenotron's potential once i used it without any signal input. I put down the guitar and started using the xenotron like a signal generator. I played with feedback, depth, rate and the Manual controls to make the device self-oscillate. Then i used a delay in the loop section, another analog modulated delay after the xenotron, and a reverb at the end of the signal chain. That's where things got really interesting. It creates some sorts of high-on-drugs-bird sounds, noises from an other world. It reminded me of Klaus Schulze music style. I could almost hear some strange unknown creatures singing.

The "zero at the middle of rotation" potentiometer thing seems to be designed to be able to get the most of the self-oscillating feature. Xenotron's Reaction pot is probably the most interesting feedback control i've ever tried.

These sounds could be interesting on their own, but they could also be used as some sort of background noises with other instruments, to give some dreamy, psychedelic, out of space and psycho-active touch.
I intend to do some more experiments on these self-oscillating noises, combined with various circuits. Ten years ago, I would also have tried some LSD while playing with this device, but i already know how exhausting an LSD experience can be, so i probably won't, i'm already too old and too lazy for that now...

I looked at some more YT videos and I understand what you mean I think. I probably do not need this in my arsenal as of now at least...

If you are looking for some flanger even better than A/DA flanger, i don't think it's possible, as far as i know.
A chorus better than MXR Stereo chorus, or some Boss chorus ? not possible neither.
Something unique, able to do its own thing ? Something inspiring that will lead you on a new experimental musical path ? Yes, that's it.

Point taken.

 

[chris.knudson]

Nickel led bezels ? First time i hear about them. Probably expensive, shiny and a bit too much, like every metal bezels ?

@eh là bas ma Are you still bashing the bezels?

 

[eh là bas ma]

Are you still bashing the bezels?

To speak ill about things, or spreading scandals isn't my style. I humbly chose my words carefully in order to describe accurately some obvious unfortunate facts about metal bezels. Can't see how we could ignore such blatant issues without lying to ourselves.

In fact, i've always had a friendly relationship with expensive and shiny metal bezels, and just like with any constructive relationship, i am always trying to be honest, with my eyes wide open.

If a friend often drinks too much and gets annoying, how does it serve him if no one dares to talk to him about it ? Same goes for metal bezels... Am i wrong ?

 

[chris.knudson]

obvious unfortunate facts

The only thing obvious and unfortunate is your lack of acceptance of the beauty of the bezel. I'll pray for you.

 

[eh là bas ma]

The only thing obvious and unfortunate is your lack of acceptance of the beauty of the bezel. I'll pray for you.

You are being too kind, i don't deserve such prayers.

I'll pray that your singular esthetic sense and your eyes won't get too damaged by some sun reflection caught on your sparkling hazardous metal bezels.

 

[chris.knudson]

You are being too kind, i don't deserve such prayers.

I'll pray that your singular esthetic sense and your eyes won't get too damaged by some sun reflection caught on your sparkling hazardous metal bezels.

Honestly, I say all this as I am searching my workshop for some of the plastic LED clips - lol. I have a build that I am working on, and I think they would work perfect for it, but for the life of me I can't seem to find them. I bought a bunch of them not long ago. I know I have some around here somewhere, I just don't know what I did with them.

 

[eh là bas ma]

Honestly, I say all this as I am searching my workshop for some of the plastic LED clips - lol. I have a build that I am working on, and I think they would work perfect for it, but for the life of me I can't seem to find them. I bought a bunch of them not long ago. I know I have some around here somewhere, I just don't know what I did with them.

As Socrate used to say : "the truth is always hidden deep inside us, all we have to do is asking the right questions".

 

[chris.knudson]

As Socrate used to say : "the truth is always hidden deep inside us, all we have to do is asking the right questions"

Found them -- they were stashed with my diodes -- duh.

 

[eh là bas ma]

Found them -- they were stashed with my diodes -- duh.

I'm sure Socrate would blame the metal bezels. They are undirectly responsible for your tidious efforts, looking for the right bezels instead of enjoying your build, like a free man.