Kliche mini choking out bypassed signal

[griff10672]

Hey Folks ...
I've just built several kliche mini's and starting testing them .
each one I've tested so far ... 5 of them .... has the same symptoms .... they are killing my bypassed tone .
when I shut off the pedal it pretty much kills my tone .... almost sounds like a crappy OD that's on . and it doesn't sound all that great when turned on either .
for reference I have a Kliche OD ( 1590BB ) that I built a few years ago .... this pedal does not do this at all and sounds amazing . ( the parts are exactly the same other than I've used carbon comp on the mini and used metal resistors on the Kliche OD and the diodes )
I don't think it has anything to do with resistor material or the diodes ... I think it's the charge pump .
when looking at Electrosmashes breakdown of the Klon ... I noticed it was using a MAX1044 instead of a TC1044SCPA ...
I had a few Maxx's on hand and threw one in .... it almost totally fixed the issue ... when on the pedal sounds amazing ... but when off ... it's better ... but not like my Kliche OD .
Funny thing is ... I purchased a JRockett Archer used at GC that did the exact same thing ... when off ... my signal was just stunted and buzzy .... like a crappy OD pedal
I'm assuming this is a charge pump issue ? is there a way to tweak it ?? I've looked over the schematics for the mini and the Kliche OD ... they are the same as far as I can tell ... and my Kliche OD works 100% perfect

 

[music6000]

Can you check to see if your 4u7's & 47uF's Electro values are in the correct spots?

 

[griff10672]

Can you check to see if your 4u7's & 47uF's Electro values are in the correct spots?

yes they are ...

 

[music6000]

1. Can you show a Picture of the Solder side of the PCB?
2. Voltages of Charge Pump & Opamps.

 

[music6000]

Can you check to see if your 4u7's & 47uF's Electro values are in the correct spots?

This is why I wanted Confirmation as their is a difference on the Gold negative stripe on same value Caps, I realize it could be just the outer sleeve in a difference spot!
The one highlighted in red is C3 which is the last cap before the Output.

 

[griff10672]

This is why I wanted Confirmation as their is a difference on the Gold negative stripe on same value Caps, I realize it could be just the outer sleeve in a difference spot!
The one highlighted in red is C3 which is the last cap before the Output.

View attachment 48142

This is why I wanted Confirmation as their is a difference on the Gold negative stripe on same value Caps, I realize it could be just the outer sleeve in a difference spot!
The one highlighted in red is C3 which is the last cap before the Output.

View attachment 48142

All the negative sides of the Electro's are facing towards the footswitch ..... and I've swapped out the 4u7 you highlighted on 2 or 3 of the builds .... did not fix the problem ...

 

[griff10672]

I just built this one yesterday ..... to see if it was something I might have messed up building the other 5

Here's some pics of the back of the board plus my voltages on the IC's

went over the back and inspected all the joints ..... everything looks fine .....
something weird going on with R28 and R29 .....
The controls don't effect the signal in bypass on this one ..... but the output is still horrible during bypass .

 

[music6000]

Pin3 on IC1 is around 1v lower than it should be???
Are you sure it's not your Test rig that is causing the problem, ie Instrument Cables, Patch Leads, Amp???
It seems weird that you got an Archer & you experienced the same sort of result.
I have had similar results that you are saying & it wasn't the Pedal, it was a patch lead that was hanging on by a thread & it was attached to my pedal board that I plug every pedal I built into probably 50 times or more.
I bought a a brand new Planet Waves guitar lead as mine was getting intermittant drop out & the New lead was about 10dB Lower than normal.
I took it back & purchased a different Brand & it was back to Normal level.
I like many others would be curious that your 5 builds in maybe 6 & you are trying to fix the issue now???
I test every component I put in a PCB one by one so I know it's correct at the end & I don't stray to another Build until I have it working & Boxed up!

 

[griff10672]

Pin3 on IC1 is around 1v lower than it should be???
Are you sure it's not your Test rig that is causing the problem, ie Instrument Cables, Patch Leads, Amp???
It seems weird that you got an Archer & you experienced the same sort of result.
I have had similar results that you are saying & it wasn't the Pedal, it was a patch lead that was hanging on by a thread & it was attached to my pedal board that I plug every pedal I built into probably 50 times or more.
I bought a a brand new Planet Waves guitar lead as mine was getting intermittant drop out & the New lead was about 10dB Lower than normal.
I took it back & purchased a different Brand & it was back to Normal level.
I like many others would be curious that your 5 builds in maybe 6 & you are trying to fix the issue now???
I test every component I put in a PCB one by one so I know it's correct at the end & I don't stray to another Build until I have it working & Boxed up!

I've got 40 boards .... fully populated and soldered up .... when building 40 of the same pedal ... you have to batch some tasks .....
I fully built 5 of them ( now 6 ) they all have the bypass issue ...
plus I took one that wasn't working ..... and removed every part ... piece by piece and tested them .... all values were correct and every part checked out fine .
as far as test equipment ..... I've literally just swapped each pedal out with my working Kliche OD .... same signal chain ( guitar into Mogami Cable into pedal into Mogami cable into Marshall 2204 . )
They all have the same issue with the bypass ... my Kliche OD works perfectly
there seems to be something going on with R28 and R29 ....
I've attached a pic of the voltages from my working Kliche OD .... they are almost exact to the Mini that I posted voltages from .

 

[music6000]

Do you have a Kliche Mini that isn't populated?
If you do, Check for continuity around that area on the resistor pads & caps, electros & see if there is anything out of whack also anything that is going to Ground that should not!
If you try doing it on the Build make sure the power is disconnected as Continuity will be non void!
It's 1.00 am so I got to get some shuteye

 

[griff10672]

Do you have a Kliche Mini that isn't populated?
If you do, Check for continuity around that area on the resistor pads & caps, electros & see if there is anything out of whack also anything that is going to Ground that should not!
If you try doing it on the Build make sure the power is disconnected as Continuity will be non void!
It's 1.00 am so I got to get some shuteye

Yes I do .....
I will check it over .
Thanks for the help

 

[music6000]

Yes I do .....
I will check it over .
Thanks for the help

Well if your wondering if it's a PCB issue, apparently not!?

Kliche mini. Build 👍🏼

A buddy of mine fried the Klon I built him last year, so I sent him the Klon I kept of the seven I made. Being without a Klon wasn’t going to fly so I ordered a new board and found this really beautiful Aqua Vein textured enclosure at @StompBoxParts. We probably all have one or more. So no big...

forum.pedalpcb.com

 

[griff10672]

Well if your wondering if it's a PCB issue, apparently not!?

https://forum.pedalpcb.com/threads/kliche-mini-build-👍🏼.17140/[/URL

That's some positive info .... I've built probably over 40 Pedal PCB builds and never had a problem I couldn't figure out in a few hours ...

So .... last night ... after tracing through most of a un populated board .... I decided to measure the resistance on R28 and R29 ( individually )
on 30 boards that are fully populated other than DC Jack , IN and Out jacks , and footswitch ...
All the measurements were the same ........... with that kind of consistancy ..... ( if it's not a board problem ) it has to be a hardware problem ....
and what is connected to R28 and R29 ..... the dam footswitch ..... so ..... looking at my working Kliche OD ..... the two things that are different in the builds other than diodes ..... are the footswitch .... and the in and out jacks ...
So I swapped out the footswitch with one like I used in my Kliche OD ..... plugged her in .....
and BOOM my bypass tone was there ..... BUT ..... now the pedal has a knocking sound almost like a car engine that's crap ... it's there whether the pedal is on or off ... almost like LFO kind of noise but louder ... and nothing I did changed the speed ...
so I took the voltage on the Charge pump .... and pin 6 was 8 volts or so .... double what it was before ...
so I thought maybe I damaged the Chip somehow ... so I replaced it with a new one .....
and Boom .... voltage was back down to about 4 volts on pin 6 .... and the pedal went back to not working correctly in bypass
but the knocking sound is gone ..... lol

I need to figure this out .... I'm suppose to get 40 pedals out the door in a couple of weeks ...

today I'm going to fully build a Kliche OD ..... and another Kliche Mini .... using the same parts .... measuring each part before it's installed ...

I don't know what else to do ....

 

[music6000]

That's some positive info .... I'v...talled ... I don't know what else to do ....

If you keep all your kliche components in draws, you may have to go through them individually & check!
I keep all my components in the bag they come in & never add to that bag.
All my resistors I buy are in sealed lots of 8 resistors with the values written on the Wrapper.
I use my wire cutters to snip each end off the paper ribbon & pop them out one at a time, bend them to shape & measure everyone & Solder them in one at a time, time consuming but I know every component is right that I put in the PCB!
All the Diodes are bent & measured using the Peak DCA55 before they go in & the Transistors , LED's.
I measure all caps & electro's before they go in with the DMM.
I have lost count the amount of times I have spotted resistors in the 1,2, 33 & 47 range that are wrong in trouble shooting on this Forum.

 

[griff10672]

I did some research ... just now about a guy losing his Pump in a original Klon ..... it blew both the Charge pump and IC2 ...

last night when I replaced the Tc1044SCPA in the almost working Kliche mini ... I never checked IC2 .... wonder if the new footswitch fixed the problem and I needed to replace IC2 also .... won't know till I get home now .

but I think the Footswitches I bought from Tayda ( first time using them ) were the bypass problem at least to some degree ...

I think my signal was bleeding through the saturated part of the signal chain through the footswitch .

 

[music6000]

I only use the CIC Blue 3PDT switch's, they have ROHS stamped in white letters on the side.
I buy them from Smallbear or locally at $9.00 Au each!!!
The only other brand I would use is Carling.
I only use ICL 7660SCPAZ for the Charge pumps, I dont like 1044s!
The amount of Members that have had Noise from their 1044's that I have recommended 7660SCPAZ fixes the problem!
It's in the Original Klons that are still out there working!!!

 

[griff10672]

I only use the CIC Blue 3PDT switch's, they have ROHS stamped in white letters on the side.
I buy them from Smallbear or locally at $9.00 Au each!!!
The only other brand I would use is Carling.
I only use ICL 7660SCPAZ for the Charge pumps, I dont like 1044s!
The amount of Members that have had Noise from their 1044's that I have recommended 7660SCPAZ fixes the problem!
It's in the Original Klons that are still out there working!!!

First thing I did when I noticed the problem ... was try a Maxx1044 ( made the problem a tad worse )
then I ordered both versions of the 7660's that Mouser had ... tried them .... problem still there ...

what I did find odd though while trying different pumps was .... I read you could use a LT1054CP as a drop in replacement for a TC1044SCPA ...
when I put a LT1054 in my mini ..... it heated up quicker than a cigarette lighter and I had to yank it .... that was before I tried a different footswitch though ..
I'm hoping that was the problem ..... I have a few different stomp switches to try at home so ...
we shall see ...
by the way .... I super appreciate the input and help !

Wayne

 

[music6000]

First thing I did when I noticed the problem ... was try a Maxx1044 ( made the problem a tad worse )
then I ordered both versions of the 7660's that Mouser had ... tried them .... problem still there ...

what I did find odd though while trying different pumps was .... I read you could use a LT1054CP as a drop in replacement for a TC1044SCPA ...
when I put a LT1054 in my mini ..... it heated up quicker than a cigarette lighter and I had to yank it .... that was before I tried a different footswitch though ..
I'm hoping that was the problem ..... I have a few different stomp switches to try at home so ...
we shall see ...
by the way .... I super appreciate the input and help !

Wayne

Pins 1 & 8 are not connected on a PCB when a LT1054 is recommended so I wouldn't use it!

 

[benny_profane]

You can rule out the foot switch by removing it and bypassing/engaging the circuit by shorting the wires. It seems like you have some sort of short somewhere.

 

[music6000]

First thing I did when I noticed the problem ... was try a Maxx1044 ( made the problem a tad worse )
then I ordered both versions of the 7660's that Mouser had ... tried them .... problem still there ...

what I did find odd though while trying different pumps was .... I read you could use a LT1054CP as a drop in replacement for a TC1044SCPA ...
when I put a LT1054 in my mini ..... it heated up quicker than a cigarette lighter and I had to yank it .... that was before I tried a different footswitch though ..
I'm hoping that was the problem ..... I have a few different stomp switches to try at home so ...
we shall see ...
by the way .... I super appreciate the input and help !

Wayne

Just for confirmation, you are using the Kliche Footswitch Breakout Board, Correct???

 

[benny_profane]

Just for confirmation, you are using the Kliche Footswitch Breakout Board, Correct???

First picture indicates so. There may be solder bridges under the breakout board though.