Thoughts on EAE's jab at the Mofeta Schem?

[fig]

@dunkindonuts,

I'm wondering if your "complaint" against your competitor would have best been dealt with at that level, rather than use that competitor's own public forum? The potential for real harm is here, so I'd personally like to know your goal?

 

[dunkindonuts]

I made an effort to get in touch with pedalpcb directly, but I was unsuccessful. I don't mind having these conversations publicly. Seems like an educational opportunity though. This discussion indicates to me that relatively few folks in the pedal world talk about (or are cognizant of) factors impacting the quality of circuit board layouts.

 

[fig]

As grandma Pyle used to say there's proof in the pudding'. I am not an EE (or even close), but I know enough that this particular
controversy could probably be resolved by running a circuit analysis on both, focusing on the alleged issues you've identified, correct?

 

[music6000]

Is the Miller effect what you wake up with in the morning after a night out with the Boys?

 

[droneshotfpv]

If I might chime in here, and just an FYI, I am not an Electrical Engineer by any stretch, JUST a hobbyist...
First, I build these pedals for a couple reasons....

1.) I LOVE electronics, building them, using them, etc.; an IT guy by profession (25+ years as a Systems Administrator, Network Engineer, system designer, NEtwork Security specialist, etc, etc etc.. I even owned a repair and sales business for Computers for 13 years, current job is Information Systems Manager and Director of IT) which has been formed through a love of how computers work. I even programmed my first computer game when I was 9 years old. Albeit nothing special, it's just in my nature to do this sort of stuff. So this suits me perfectly

2.) As mentioned by some, there are some pedals that are no longer available, unless you buy on the secondary market. And SOME of those are either beat up to hell and back, and most likely needing repairs, or they are so OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive, that I would NEVER buy one simply on principal, because I plan to play it, not admire it on a shelf. i.e. Klon.. would I love to own an original? Absolutely, but I REFUSE to pay that for one. Even if I was Oprah Rich, I wouldn't buy one... So building one is the next best option for me to experience those sounds which I wouldn't be able to in the first place.

3.) It's really helping me learn circuit design, and "flow". I paid very little attention in electronics class in High School, and otherwise didn't bother with Electronics after that one class. Didn't think it would fit what I wanted to do as a job in the future... But now, knowing how some of these work (nowhere near fully understanding, but just an idea / surface scratch of how it works) has given me the desire, at 44 years old, and having been building for the last nearly 2ish years, to learn circuit design, and implementation. This has also given me technical projects to share with my Step Son who is interested in electronics as well, effectively becoming a teachable thing for him and learning as we move along.

4.) As a musician of 29 years, it gives me a sense of accomplishment to be able to make my own pedals, as well as work on my own guitars (which is how it all started, wiring my own pickups and POTS, and no longer paying the local Music Store guy that was ripping me and everyone else off).

I have seen a few people selling their DIY builds on Reverb, but those aren't (from what I have seen) large or boutique companies setting out to make a killing selling DIY builds. Some of them (that pougnet guy for example) seem to sell their excess pedals they built that they won't revisit / use, and make space for new ones to try. I am sure most of them are like me, and have walls of pedals (and like most of us, right?)
I know this doesn't mean that people don't have an idea to try and get rich off this idea, but as a community, a lot of us that see people trying to get rich off of others hard work, generally stay away from them and watch them fade away into the darkness.

TL;DR Not all of us building these pedals are out to build them to get rich and sell mass quantities. Most are like me, a LOVE of building, with a sense of accomplishment of something "WE" did. As well as the ability to use something we otherwise may not have been able to use to to limited access (read as purposeful limited stock for BUZZ creation from some lol) of the retail item.

So I wouldn't take a stance of everyone doing this is doing so to make an item to sell out form under the original creator.

 

[Brocko]

@dunkindonuts you should probably leave it as you are just losing credibility now. The comment about slapping any old component in there to get stuff out the door is a staggering omission.

Disclosure: i know the guy who runs Pedal PCB

but i will give you my experiences as a guy who does sometimes build stuff...

1. I buy a lot of pedals, even though i build stuff. The usual reasons for doing a clone are usually so i can either have it look how i want or so i can get it to fit where i want on a board. Sometimes it is just fun doing it yourself and having something bespoke - but you still want it to sound good.

2. Building a clone usually makes me want an original MORE - i can think of numerous examples of pedals that i have bought after building a clone.

3. I had never herd of your company before this saga - i probably would have considered buying something in the future if you hadn't come out with some of the statements you have - both the snake oil statements about layout or the statements showing a complete lack of regard for customers

4. Your real loss of business is down to business acumen, not cloners. You make very limited quantities so it sells out straight away - i don't know if you do this because you don't know how to scale up or just for ego purposes, but the fact is your stuff is HARD TO BUY. You have created a scalpers market for your used pedals on the market which is a much bigger issue than cloners.

5. People just don't wanna wait 4 years for a pedal, or even if they do, might still want to be able to use something 'similar' while waiting.

Bottom line is you really are not losing any money down to this, you really aren't. Also remember how you started, it was copying someone else design....

 

[dunkindonuts]

As grandma Pyle used to say there's proof in the pudding'. I am not an EE (or even close), but I know enough that this particular
controversy could probably be resolved by running a circuit analysis on both, focusing on the alleged issues you've identified, correct?

Sure, would probably be instructive to throw these on an audio analyzer and look at the noise floor. It's difficult to evaluate THD+N in a high gain circuit (i.e. anything intended to clip) but a head to head test would be interesting. Based on the evolution of our products, I am confident that my layout optimizations have had a positive impact on our noise floor, stability at high gain, and EMI/RFI (which, granted, is not a serious concern for DIY). Earlier, rejected Model feT layouts had issues with the charge pump capacitively coupling into the rest of the circuit through the traces to and from the bypass footswitch.

I feel guilty now after reading this!

Just for fun I went back and checked our part change notices. We have two documented changes: the very first V3s (~50 units) had 100pF caps in a couple places that since got changed to other values. A later run had the aforementioned emergency end-of-reel substitution of 1206 package caps on 1210 footprints, but the values are identical. Manufacturing is fun, eh? If I can get the serials, I can perhaps be more specific.

TL;DR Not all of us building these pedals are out to build them to get rich and sell mass quantities. Most are like me, a LOVE of building, with a sense of accomplishment of something "WE" did. As well as the ability to use something we otherwise may not have been able to use to to limited access (read as purposeful limited stock for BUZZ creation from some lol) of the retail item.

All great points here, and I'm glad that DIY pedal building is a springboard into implement your own ideas. Using existing products can be a great educational resource. I do think there are unscrupulous commercial entities out there, big and small, who use reverse engineering and publicly released schematics in lieu of "R&D".

@dunkindonuts you should probably leave it as you are just losing credibility now. The comment about slapping any old component in there to get stuff out the door is a staggering omission.

Disclosure: i know the guy who runs Pedal PCB

but i will give you my experiences as a guy who does sometimes build stuff...

1. I buy a lot of pedals, even though i build stuff. The usual reasons for doing a clone are usually so i can either have it look how i want or so i can get it to fit where i want on a board. Sometimes it is just fun doing it yourself and having something bespoke - but you still want it to sound good.

2. Building a clone usually makes me want an original MORE - i can think of numerous examples of pedals that i have bought after building a clone.

3. I had never herd of your company before this saga - i probably would have considered buying something in the future if you hadn't come out with some of the statements you have - both the snake oil statements about layout or the statements showing a complete lack of regard for customers

4. Your real loss of business is down to business acumen, not cloners. You make very limited quantities so it sells out straight away - i don't know if you do this because you don't know how to scale up or just for ego purposes, but the fact is your stuff is HARD TO BUY. You have created a scalpers market for your used pedals on the market which is a much bigger issue than cloners.

5. People just don't wanna wait 4 years for a pedal, or even if they do, might still want to be able to use something 'similar' while waiting.

Bottom line is you really are not losing any money down to this, you really aren't. Also remember how you started, it was copying someone else design....

Thanks for your comments. I was a full-time student doing this as a hobby until I graduated in summer 2020, and despite the pandemic related shutdowns and supply chain problems, we've been scaling up aggressively since then to improve access and combat scalping. The limitations are, hopefully, temporary.

If you'd like to talk more about the physics of PCB layouts I am happy to get into it, but it's definitely not snake oil. I did previously address how I think the Model feT constitutes original work vs homage. Our pedals that are homages are specifically of things that no longer exist, and we've clearly delineated that in our graphics and copy as well. (For example our IVP based pedals - intersound is long gone, so it was fair game to editorialize it down into a pedal format and we were the first to do so, but you can buy Aion's take on that circuit as well).

 

[fig]

I do think there are unscrupulous commercial entities out there, big and small, who use reverse engineering and publicly released schematics in lieu of "R&D".

Present company excluded of course?

 

[zgrav]

As grandma Pyle used to say there's proof in the pudding'. I am not an EE (or even close), but I know enough that this particular
controversy could probably be resolved by running a circuit analysis on both, focusing on the alleged issues you've identified, correct?

It would be interesting to hear an a/b comparison of the original pedal and the clone version, along with some other measures of the output to see what the differences might be and whether you can hear them. When I watch other youtube videos making comparisons like that it seems like the differences between the two are usually minimal, but they rarely sound exactly the same.

With vintage pedals the variation in the components are probably a larger factor than they would be for pedals using currently-made parts.

 

[fig]

opinion: bad form

moving on to more productive conversation. take care!

 

[zgrav]

Sure, would probably be instructive to throw these on an audio analyzer and look at the noise floor. It's difficult to evaluate THD+N in a high gain circuit (i.e. anything intended to clip) but a head to head test would be interesting. Based on the evolution of our products, I am confident that my layout optimizations have had a positive impact on our noise floor, stability at high gain, and EMI/RFI (which, granted, is not a serious concern for DIY). Earlier, rejected Model feT layouts had issues with the charge pump capacitively coupling into the rest of the circuit through the traces to and from the bypass footswitch.


Just for fun I went back and checked our part change notices. We have two documented changes: the very first V3s (~50 units) had 100pF caps in a couple places that since got changed to other values. A later run had the aforementioned emergency end-of-reel substitution of 1206 package caps on 1210 footprints, but the values are identical. Manufacturing is fun, eh? If I can get the serials, I can perhaps be more specific.


All great points here, and I'm glad that DIY pedal building is a springboard into implement your own ideas. Using existing products can be a great educational resource. I do think there are unscrupulous commercial entities out there, big and small, who use reverse engineering and publicly released schematics in lieu of "R&D".


Thanks for your comments. I was a full-time student doing this as a hobby until I graduated in summer 2020, and despite the pandemic related shutdowns and supply chain problems, we've been scaling up aggressively since then to improve access and combat scalping. The limitations are, hopefully, temporary.

If you'd like to talk more about the physics of PCB layouts I am happy to get into it, but it's definitely not snake oil. I did previously address how I think the Model feT constitutes original work vs homage. Our pedals that are homages are specifically of things that no longer exist, and we've clearly delineated that in our graphics and copy as well. (For example our IVP based pedals - intersound is long gone, so it was fair game to editorialize it down into a pedal format and we were the first to do so, but you can buy Aion's take on that circuit as well).

Thanks for your replies. It is interesting to get some insight into the challenges you have faced making a transition into a larger enterprise. Obviously dealing with limited production and a high resale demand contribute to the demand for cloned versions. The stories about the scalper resale market and very long delays for orders for the Klon Centaur come to mind as well.

Best of luck with your efforts to boost your output to meet the demand. I doubt if the DIY market -- at least for people who mostly build for their own use -- will be anything more than a rounding error on your sales.

 

[coltonius]

@dunkindonuts Okay, I'll bite.

First of all, I think anyone who would build / buy a clone of your pedal falls into one of two categories:
1. They never were your customer and never will be.
2. They will be exposed to and appreciate the circuit enough to purchase an original.

So either way, you've lost nothing.

Second: Your fuss about the layout. In my experience, layout does matter. But at this point, I think you're a few hundred behind Bugg on designing PCB layouts. I've never had a problem with noise in one of his PCBs. Sorry they're not up to your standards I guess? But they're not for you.

I understand you're bothered by this, as you have skin in the game. See my first point.

 

[dunkindonuts]

Thanks for your replies. It is interesting to get some insight into the challenges you have faced making a transition into a larger enterprise. Obviously dealing with limited production and a high resale demand contribute to the demand for cloned versions. The stories about the scalper resale market and very long delays for orders for the Klon Centaur come to mind as well.

Best of luck with your efforts to boost your output to meet the demand. I doubt if the DIY market -- at least for people who mostly build for their own use -- will be anything more than a rounding error on your sales.

Bill is a personal friend and, all other things equal, he has really been through the wringer with manufacturing and the fallout from not being able to meet demand. That's a story for another place and time though. Scaling up is hard especially in such volatile and uncertain economic times. This problem is nearly universal among independent pedal manufacturers. But the way out is through. Thanks for the kind words.

@dunkindonuts Okay, I'll bite.

First of all, I think anyone who would build / buy a clone of your pedal falls into one of two categories:
1. They never were your customer and never will be.
2. They will be exposed to and appreciate the circuit enough to purchase an original.

So either way, you've lost nothing.

Second: Your fuss about the layout. In my experience, layout does matter. But at this point, I think you're a few hundred behind Bugg on designing PCB layouts. I've never had a problem with noise in one of his PCBs. Sorry they're not up to your standards I guess? But they're not for you.

I understand you're bothered by this, as you have skin in the game. See my first point.

My personal feelings/anxieties/whatever you want to call it aside, you bring up good points. Everyone whose work is reverse engineered feels a way about it, I'm just the dumbass who posted about it lol. I'm glad that you understand why I was bothered in the first place.

Bugg and I have both laid out a TON of boards, but we are optimizing for different things in our layouts. The Mofeta layout is almost perfectly symmetrical, and it fits in a 125B. That's cool, but I focused on manufacturability and low noise over everything else. (Also, I dislike the ergonomics of 6 knobs in a 125B-sized form factor, especially in a live setting, but that's purely subjective.)

 

[coltonius]

Bill is a personal friend and, all other things equal, he has really been through the wringer with manufacturing and the fallout from not being able to meet demand. That's a story for another place and time though. Scaling up is hard especially in such volatile and uncertain economic times. This problem is nearly universal among independent pedal manufacturers. But the way out is through. Thanks for the kind words.


My personal feelings/anxieties/whatever you want to call it aside, you bring up good points. Everyone whose work is reverse engineered feels a way about it, I'm just the dumbass who posted about it lol. I'm glad that you understand why I was bothered in the first place.

Bugg and I have both laid out a TON of boards, but we are optimizing for different things in our layouts. The Mofeta layout is almost perfectly symmetrical, and it fits in a 125B. That's cool, but I focused on manufacturability and low noise over everything else. (Also, I dislike the ergonomics of 6 knobs in a 125B-sized form factor, especially in a live setting, but that's purely subjective.)

You've been a really good sport about all of this, despite your frustration. Kudos for keeping the conversation lines open!

 

[music6000]

I was going to purchase a Klon from Bill back in early 2009 & sent him an email to purchase one.
He basically asked if I was suitable to purchase his professional pedal as it was designed for the Pro guitar player.
I didn't bother replying as I thought his Shit stinks just like everybody else!
He is his own worse enemy !!! & the rest is History!

 

[LegalDept]

I was going to purchase a Klon from Bill back in early 2009 & sent him an email to purchase one.
He basically asked if I was suitable to purchase his professional pedal as it was designed for the Pro guitar player.
I didn't bother replying as I thought his Shit stinks just like everybody else!
He is his own worse enemy !!! & the rest is History!

That's fuckin crazy

 

[droneshotfpv]

That's fuckin crazy

I was going to purchase a Klon from Bill back in early 2009 & sent him an email to purchase one.
He basically asked if I was suitable to purchase his professional pedal as it was designed for the Pro guitar player.
I didn't bother replying as I thought his Shit stinks just like everybody else!
He is his own worse enemy !!! & the rest is History!

If anyone selling a product ever came at me with a stuck up question like that, I would tell him to cram his products up his ass. lol

 

[benny_profane]

@dunkindonuts

I'm having a little trouble finding the core of your argument. I'd like to approach this matter impartially. Would you mind clarifying exactly what the issue is?

The initial concerns brought up seem to amount to the idea that the the Mofeta project has the potential to negatively impact EAE.

• Component discrepancies and layout issues (particularly with parasitic capacitance, signal routing, and potential RF interference) make the project a non-representative simulacrum.
• The project itself poses an existential threat to EAE (and the Model feT) because:
  • DIY builders will build at scale (or the combined effect of many builders selling at a small scale).
  • Unscrupulous companies will take the project / schematic to manufacture a clone project.
• The power section's polarity protection is a comparatively crude method.

An impartial observer might find issue with some of these arguments.

First, there's an implicit generalized critique of the existence of DIY pedal building. However, during the course of the argument, you've cited runoffgrove (ROG) and DIYStompboxes as sources of inspiration and assistance during development. You've also stated that you've built clone circuits in the past and see that as a valuable heuristic for development. So, what is can be traced, cloned, discussed, learned from, or built upon?

Second, there are a number of commercial pedals, DIY PCB projects, and schematics all evoking the 'Sunn Model T' name. Do those debase the Model feT? You've said that the integration of the power amp stage is the novel development that sets this circuit apart. Heretofore, has there been confusion about the different projects? It appears that EAE's Model feT has been able to distinguish itself in the marketplace and has a demand. It seems that the EAE product has been able to establish a reputation that deliberately sets it apart from those other projects. So, what is the real concern here? For example, a DIY project sold for less than half the list price will be sold to someone that never would have been a customer. If that person is dissatisfied with the pedal, I very much doubt that any complaints will be taken to have bearing on the EAE pedal. Plenty of people buy/sell Klon clones. Does the existence of versions of varying quality or attention to detail materially affect the perception of the original Klon units?

I am sympathetic to concerns that may arise because a particular product's name is evoked. But, couching that discomfort in non-related arguments that belie the real drive is causing a disconnect. What is the real issue here?

 

[Brocko]

Sure, would probably be instructive to throw these on an audio analyzer and look at the noise floor. It's difficult to evaluate THD+N in a high gain circuit (i.e. anything intended to clip) but a head to head test would be interesting. Based on the evolution of our products, I am confident that my layout optimizations have had a positive impact on our noise floor, stability at high gain, and EMI/RFI (which, granted, is not a serious concern for DIY). Earlier, rejected Model feT layouts had issues with the charge pump capacitively coupling into the rest of the circuit through the traces to and from the bypass footswitch.


Just for fun I went back and checked our part change notices. We have two documented changes: the very first V3s (~50 units) had 100pF caps in a couple places that since got changed to other values. A later run had the aforementioned emergency end-of-reel substitution of 1206 package caps on 1210 footprints, but the values are identical. Manufacturing is fun, eh? If I can get the serials, I can perhaps be more specific.


All great points here, and I'm glad that DIY pedal building is a springboard into implement your own ideas. Using existing products can be a great educational resource. I do think there are unscrupulous commercial entities out there, big and small, who use reverse engineering and publicly released schematics in lieu of "R&D".


Thanks for your comments. I was a full-time student doing this as a hobby until I graduated in summer 2020, and despite the pandemic related shutdowns and supply chain problems, we've been scaling up aggressively since then to improve access and combat scalping. The limitations are, hopefully, temporary.

If you'd like to talk more about the physics of PCB layouts I am happy to get into it, but it's definitely not snake oil. I did previously address how I think the Model feT constitutes original work vs homage. Our pedals that are homages are specifically of things that no longer exist, and we've clearly delineated that in our graphics and copy as well. (For example our IVP based pedals - intersound is long gone, so it was fair game to editorialize it down into a pedal format and we were the first to do so, but you can buy Aion's take on that circuit as well).

it is snake oil from the point of view of what you are building. There re so many other components that go in to a guitar signal chain that any atomically minute improvement you make in your design will make ZERO difference in the real world. As soon astray step on that Big Muff all bets are off. Plus I have found that audiences don't tend to stick around too long when you plug into an oscilliscope rather than an amp, even if they are all too drunk to notice.Most of them couldn't tell the difference if you are playing a strat or a Les Paul.

I could pick a ton of holes in your 'optimised design' btw but i see little point. What i would say is that you haven't even heard the pedalpcb version and are making a lot of assumptions about it which i can tell you are wrong.

End of the day though, if people like your pedals and buy them then great. Happy for you.

 

[dunkindonuts]

@dunkindonuts

I'm having a little trouble finding the core of your argument. I'd like to approach this matter impartially. Would you mind clarifying exactly what the issue is?

The simplest way to state this is that I'm bothered that something I made is, due to reverse engineering, no longer entirely in my control. It's something I've struggled to come to terms with, but it's given me lots to think about.

The initial concerns brought up seem to amount to the idea that the the Mofeta project has the potential to negatively impact EAE.

• Component discrepancies and layout issues (particularly with parasitic capacitance, signal routing, and potential RF interference) make the project a non-representative simulacrum.
• The project itself poses an existential threat to EAE (and the Model feT) because:
  • DIY builders will build at scale (or the combined effect of many builders selling at a small scale).
  • Unscrupulous companies will take the project / schematic to manufacture a clone project.
• The power section's polarity protection is a comparatively crude method.

An impartial observer might find issue with some of these arguments.

1. I'd say this is accurate. I am a relentless self-critic and know this design inside out, so it wasn't hard for me to apply that same level of criticism to the Mofeta layout.
2. This is, candidly, a projection of my anxieties. There are exceptions that could prove the rule (Centaur/KTR, 1981 DRV, arguably the Hudson Broadcast), but assuming it'd apply to my own work does require a few leaps.
3. That was more of a remark about trying to figure out which version was traced. We used to use a series diode, but the current production version (as of the Summer/Fall 2020 revamp) has a more sophisticated power protection scheme (over-voltage and reverse polarity) that IMO is not practical for a DIY product.

First, there's an implicit generalized critique of the existence of DIY pedal building. However, during the course of the argument, you've cited runoffgrove (ROG) and DIYStompboxes as sources of inspiration and assistance during development. You've also stated that you've built clone circuits in the past and see that as a valuable heuristic for development. So, what is can be traced, cloned, discussed, learned from, or built upon?

I think DIY pedal building is immensely valuable. It's where almost anyone building pedals for a living got started. I have tried to pay it forward by sharing information where I can with up-and-coming pedal builders, running classes, and providing open source materials online. All that to say, I am trying to leave the community better than I found it.

I have personal issues with the increasingly widespread proliferation of clone PCBs of small companies whose primary failing is not being able to manufacture enough to meet demand. I remember in the early 2000s when DIYStompboxes and Freestomboxes would take apart designs only to find another tube screamer or FF derivative that lied about its origins. That was a good thing, though I think this resulted in a lot of (not unfounded) cynicism in the DIY community. However with the rise of cheap PCB prototyping circa 2013-2014 came a wave of cool, original work. That, to me, is why we're in somewhat of a golden age of pedals now. But I digress.

What can be cloned? I'm not a moral philosopher or an IP lawyer. I don't know if a hard and fast rule is possible. I generally adhere to a punching up vs punching down dichotomy. I think some pedal designs are, for better or for worse, effectively public domain. Usually the originators of those designs are associated with big companies that are still doing just fine due to brand recognition and big margins. Conversely, small companies aren't going to have the same margins, and the risks of reverse engineering are potentially greater.

When it comes to personal and educational use, I suppose nearly anything is fair game.

If I am working with a circuit that is not original, I play it safe. I either 1) pick something from a long-defunct company and be transparent about the origins or 2) make substantial changes to the design. Sometimes I do both.

Second, there are a number of commercial pedals, DIY PCB projects, and schematics all evoking the 'Sunn Model T' name. Do those debase the Model feT? You've said that the integration of the power amp stage is the novel development that sets this circuit apart. Heretofore, has there been confusion about the different projects? It appears that EAE's Model feT has been able to distinguish itself in the marketplace and has a demand. It seems that the EAE product has been able to establish a reputation that deliberately sets it apart from those other projects. So, what is the real concern here? For example, a DIY project sold for less than half the list price will be sold to someone that never would have been a customer. If that person is dissatisfied with the pedal, I very much doubt that any complaints will be taken to have bearing on the EAE pedal. Plenty of people buy/sell Klon clones. Does the existence of versions of varying quality or attention to detail materially affect the perception of the original Klon units?

I suppose I'd say no to basically all of the above. You make good points. There is little to no market confusion. We had an issue with a reverb seller using our branding for a pedal based on the coda schematic, which I think would have been misleading due to the lack of power amp emulation. Otherwise, I do think we've been fortunate to have our own identity.

I am sympathetic to concerns that may arise because a particular product's name is evoked. But, couching that discomfort in non-related arguments that belie the real drive is causing a disconnect. What is the real issue here?

I agree there is a disconnect. I hope that I have now meaningfully answered your questions.