NSFW What's up with the buffers in cornish designs?

[ThePanda]

What are everyone's thoughts on the Boss/Ibanez style JFET switching buffers?
I was bouncing around the idea of putting on in my Cephied Chorus when I build it.

 

[mdc]

It's so odd to me that folks are constantly trying to hunt down vintage parts, enclosures, transistors, diodes, whatever in an attempt to make replica fuzz faces or recreate any other vintage circuit; yet here is a person who for better or worse is building the same things they've always built in the same way that he's been building them since 1972 or whenever, charging prices that customers seem happy to pay, and being the same oddball snooty British guy he's always been, and people take it as a personal insult.

 

[lrgaraujo]

This concept transcends the circuits though: It just seems to me that everyone is a flippin' expert these days about someone else's circuit.

This forum has had it's recent examples too.

I get it, if a tracer releases a schematic, suddenly everyone thinks they are an expert.

What I find disconcerting is that instead of NOT looking that gift horse in the mouth, everyone seems very content to hack the poor creatures head off with a broadsword and stomp on it.

I don't think this is directed at me, but I feel like I have to make it clear that this was not my intention when making this post. I recognized the bootstrapped design and was genuinely curious as to why it would be used, since there are more parts involved.

Yeah, no idea about the Cornish pedals (I’ve never built one, but I’ve never heard a demo that I was crazy about of one), but I do quite enjoy the Cornish buffer. My go to buffer because it’s super transparent (as a buffer would hopefully be) and most pedals I’ve put after it react better to it than certain other popular buffer designs.

That's good to know, I might give it a try

 

[Robert]

But definitely not worth telling a guy to go fuck himself over.

I utilized great restraint.... it was tough at times.

Either way, my personal opinion is to take these schematics we get for NOTHING and simply appreciate them for what they are. Slagging the builder ON TOP of getting to take a peek into their circuit seems unsavory.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I do feel this comment implies the builders are just handing over the schematics for us to peruse out of the kindness of their hearts.

This, however, generally is not the case. Some builders take extreme measures to prevent our peeks inside.

Purchasing a pedal, spending hours scraping away epoxy that has no purpose aside from obscuring a circuit, then more hours tracing the circuit, identifying components that have had their part numbers sanded away/painted over, etc is a bit more involved than "for nothing".

 

[finebyfine]

What are everyone's thoughts on the Boss/Ibanez style JFET switching buffers?
I was bouncing around the idea of putting on in my Cephied Chorus when I build it.

I play mostly with active pickups and a buffered tuner at the start of my board so tone suck is pretty minimal for me but even still I’ll throw a boss pedal somewhere downstream even if it’s not something I use much for the buffer. Buffers are Good

 

[Big Monk]

I utilized great restraint.... it was tough at times.



I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I do feel this comment implies the builders are just handing over the schematics for us to peruse out of the kindness of their hearts.

This, however, generally is not the case. Some builders take extreme measures to prevent our peeks inside.

Purchasing a pedal, spending hours scraping away epoxy that has no purpose aside from obscuring a circuit, then more hours tracing the circuit, identifying components that have had their part numbers sanded away/painted over, etc is a bit more involved than "for nothing".

I meant to say that WE, the consumer get it for nothing. Which is a great deal. Even if we don’t buy your board, we get to peek.

I’m 1000% in agreement that you have great investment in each project.

 

[Robert]

I’m 1000% in agreement that you have great investment in each project.

I didn't really mean myself specifically. I enjoy the challenge.

 

[Cybercow]

I've yet to build any sort of Cornish buffer, but have an Aion Cygnus on order and want to see/hear what all the fuss is about.

I plan to compare it to the AMZ Super Buffer; which on paper appears to be overkill. But then I've never left the learning curve of electronics. It's a deep rabbit hole.

 

[manfesto]

Most of the shit talk is often if

A) the marketing is clearly lying about the circuit or is (unironically) over the top with the claims
B) the circuit is clearly a clone of something with next to no innovation
C) ridiculously priced
D) overengineered (often to justify driving up the price)
E) a combination of any number of the 4 options above

Issues with the builders' personality, support/service, build quality, etc. all factor in why I personally hate on a couple of builders, but the points above are what I think are people's issues that lead them to hate on the designs.

This.

Re: that 29Pedals dude in particular, since apparently some people think it was the circuit design and not the designer douchebaggery that was being shat upon -

Were 29Pedals's claim to fame a $100-$150 buffer with a MAX1044 charge pump in a 125B, there'd be nothing really to shit talk because regardless of the complexity of the final design, that's an understandable price and form factor for an MIA pedal with a reasonable parts count (note how of all the things Chase Tone catches shit for around these parts, it's never for their circuit design or pricing) - but you don't get to be the "boutique buffer" guy with products like that nosiree.

It's a bit of an "I know it when I see it" thing sure, but you *know* when a dude over-designs and over-builds a BUFFER - a circuit that has absolutely *no* business being hooked up to an overkill power supply that solves no real-world issues and also apparently draws 144mA when it's idling???, housed in an enclosure that has *no* business being the size of a 1590BB, much less a *custom tooled* enclosure the size of a 1590BB - he's fleecing his customers.

He may not think he is because his margins, like his self-awareness, are low, but he's still trying to be the "you know my shit is boutique just look how expensive fancy my buffer is" guy. That's his *selling point* - that his shit's needlessly expensive so it *must* be good - like someone hocking designer handbags, or a guy who thinks he's clever to put a motorcycle engine in a car body and price it like a truck, assuming the people buying it aren't smart enough to look past the novelty to see the absurdity. That's both transparently obvious and very gross. It's disrespectful of his consumers, regardless of if he himself is even aware that's what he's doing.

I find that shit unsavory, and speaking for myself I feel no shame or guilt calling him or anybody else out on it - and should they come in loudly and rudely like 29Pedals dude did, I feel no shame or guilt being loud and rude right back (but moreso, because I'm pretty good at being loud and rude).

Don't come into a space (online or otherwise) with more bluster than sense and expect to be treated half as well as you think you deserve to be.

-----

(Also, I don't care how low your margins are, if you've somehow managed to fuck up designing a buffer *so* hard that you'd be losing money if you weren't charging $300, your design is indeed straight-up *bad*. You either did it by choice (because you want to be the "boutique buffer" guy), or by mistake (because you couldn't optimize either your design or your BoM to hit more reasonable price points, the way a *good* designer would (a good designer would've dropped that fucking 144mA-at-idle power supply *regardless* of its development time and cost, so leaving it in is either sunken-cost-fallacy hubris or I-need-to-justify-my-pricepoint malice)), but either way your design is *bad*.

 

[Big Monk]

This.

Re: that 29Pedals dude in particular, since apparently some people think it was the circuit design and not the designer douchebaggery that was being shat upon -

Were 29Pedals's claim to fame a $100-$150 buffer with a MAX1044 charge pump in a 125B, there'd be nothing really to shit talk because regardless of the complexity of the final design, that's an understandable price and form factor for an MIA pedal with a reasonable parts count (note how of all the things Chase Tone catches shit for around these parts, it's never for their circuit design or pricing) - but you don't get to be the "boutique buffer" guy with products like that nosiree.

It's a bit of an "I know it when I see it" thing sure, but you *know* when a dude over-designs and over-builds a BUFFER - a circuit that has absolutely *no* business being hooked up to an overkill power supply that solves no real-world issues and also apparently draws 144mA when it's idling???, housed in an enclosure that has *no* business being the size of a 1590BB, much less a *custom tooled* enclosure the size of a 1590BB - he's fleecing his customers.

He may not think he is because his margins, like his self-awareness, are low, but he's still trying to be the "you know my shit is boutique just look how expensive fancy my buffer is" guy. That's his *selling point* - that his shit's needlessly expensive so it *must* be good - like someone hocking designer handbags, or a guy who thinks he's clever to put a motorcycle engine in a car body and price it like a truck, assuming the people buying it aren't smart enough to look past the novelty to see the absurdity. That's both transparently obvious and very gross. It's disrespectful of his consumers, regardless of if he himself is even aware that's what he's doing.

I find that shit unsavory, and speaking for myself I feel no shame or guilt calling him or anybody else out on it - and should they come in loudly and rudely like 29Pedals dude did, I feel no shame or guilt being loud and rude right back (but moreso, because I'm pretty good at being loud and rude).

Don't come into a space (online or otherwise) with more bluster than sense and expect to be treated half as well as you think you deserve to be.

-----

(Also, I don't care how low your margins are, if you've somehow managed to fuck up designing a buffer *so* hard that you'd be losing money if you weren't charging $300, your design is indeed straight-up *bad*. You either did it by choice (because you want to be the "boutique buffer" guy), or by mistake (because you couldn't optimize either your design or your BoM to hit more reasonable price points, the way a *good* designer would (a good designer would've dropped that fucking 144mA-at-idle power supply *regardless* of its development time and cost, so leaving it in is either sunken-cost-fallacy hubris or I-need-to-justify-my-pricepoint malice)), but either way your design is *bad*.

You definitely talk a lot of shit.

 

[Robert]

Since the conversation has somewhat shifted over to 29 Pedals I want to point out something that has been bugging me lately.

Bear in mind I have not tested this theory, but here we go...


According to all of the marketing hype: "The WHATEVER power supply accepts 7.5 to 35 volts of AC or DC (either polarity) with absolutely no change in tone."

The WHATEVER power supply works by using a full wave bridge rectifier to convert AC to DC, or correct incorrect polarity DC.

Once we have a DC voltage it is regulated down to 5V, stepped back up to +/-15V by a PWM circuit, then regulated back down to the voltages required by the pedal it is paired with.


Here's what concerns me...

1) When powered by DC the bridge rectifier drops around 1 - 2 volts (give or take) and the 7805 regulator has a dropout voltage of 2V. This means when the pedal is powered by the advertised minimum (7.5V) the MAX743 IC is getting around 4.5VDC. According to the datasheet it needs 6V for proper operation. I can confirm that the pedal does function when powered at 7.5V, but this seems a bit borderline to me.

Now this is the big one...

2) When powered by AC a full-wave bridge rectifier outputs a DC voltage approximately 1.414 times the input voltage. This means if the pedal is powered on 35V AC the 7805 regulator is being blasted with 49VDC. The 7805 has an absolute maximum of 35V. I can not confirm that the pedal will function properly on 35V AC......

I want to believe 29 Pedals has actually tested the pedal at the advertised voltage ranges and didn't just assume that because the 7805 can handle 35VDC then the entire circuit can as well. Maybe we should find out what happens?

This is why the IDGAF power modules will list two different voltage ranges, one for AC and one for DC, because they are not the same.

 

[Laundryroom David]

This.

Re: that 29Pedals dude in particular, since apparently some people think it was the circuit design and not the designer douchebaggery that was being shat upon -

Were 29Pedals's claim to fame a $100-$150 buffer with a MAX1044 charge pump in a 125B, there'd be nothing really to shit talk because regardless of the complexity of the final design, that's an understandable price and form factor for an MIA pedal with a reasonable parts count (note how of all the things Chase Tone catches shit for around these parts, it's never for their circuit design or pricing) - but you don't get to be the "boutique buffer" guy with products like that nosiree.

It's a bit of an "I know it when I see it" thing sure, but you *know* when a dude over-designs and over-builds a BUFFER - a circuit that has absolutely *no* business being hooked up to an overkill power supply that solves no real-world issues and also apparently draws 144mA when it's idling???, housed in an enclosure that has *no* business being the size of a 1590BB, much less a *custom tooled* enclosure the size of a 1590BB - he's fleecing his customers.

He may not think he is because his margins, like his self-awareness, are low, but he's still trying to be the "you know my shit is boutique just look how expensive fancy my buffer is" guy. That's his *selling point* - that his shit's needlessly expensive so it *must* be good - like someone hocking designer handbags, or a guy who thinks he's clever to put a motorcycle engine in a car body and price it like a truck, assuming the people buying it aren't smart enough to look past the novelty to see the absurdity. That's both transparently obvious and very gross. It's disrespectful of his consumers, regardless of if he himself is even aware that's what he's doing.

I find that shit unsavory, and speaking for myself I feel no shame or guilt calling him or anybody else out on it - and should they come in loudly and rudely like 29Pedals dude did, I feel no shame or guilt being loud and rude right back (but moreso, because I'm pretty good at being loud and rude).

Don't come into a space (online or otherwise) with more bluster than sense and expect to be treated half as well as you think you deserve to be.

-----

(Also, I don't care how low your margins are, if you've somehow managed to fuck up designing a buffer *so* hard that you'd be losing money if you weren't charging $300, your design is indeed straight-up *bad*. You either did it by choice (because you want to be the "boutique buffer" guy), or by mistake (because you couldn't optimize either your design or your BoM to hit more reasonable price points, the way a *good* designer would (a good designer would've dropped that fucking 144mA-at-idle power supply *regardless* of its development time and cost, so leaving it in is either sunken-cost-fallacy hubris or I-need-to-justify-my-pricepoint malice)), but either way your design is *bad*.

This is exactly how I feel about that particular incident.

 

[Laundryroom David]

Since the conversation has somewhat shifted over to 29 Pedals I want to point out something that has been bugging me lately.

Bear in mind I have not tested this theory, but here we go...


According to all of the marketing hype: "The WHATEVER power supply accepts 7.5 to 35 volts of AC or DC (either polarity) with absolutely no change in tone."

The WHATEVER power supply works by using a full wave bridge rectifier to convert AC to DC, or correct incorrect polarity DC.

Once we have a DC voltage it is regulated down to 5V, stepped back up to +/-15V by a PWM circuit, then regulated back down to the voltages required by the pedal it is paired with.


Here's what concerns me...

1) When powered by DC the bridge rectifier drops around 1 - 2 volts (give or take) and the 7805 regulator has a dropout voltage of 2V. This means when the pedal is powered by the advertised minimum (7.5V) the MAX743 IC is getting around 4.5VDC. According to the datasheet it needs 6V for proper operation. I can confirm that the pedal does function when powered at 7.5V, but this seems a bit borderline to me.

Now this is the big one...

2) When powered by AC a full-wave bridge rectifier outputs a DC voltage approximately 1.414 times the input voltage. This means if the pedal is powered on 35V AC the 7805 regulator is being blasted with 49VDC. The 7805 has an absolute maximum of 35V. I can not confirm that the pedal will function properly on 35V AC......

I want to believe 29 Pedals has actually tested the pedal at the advertised voltage ranges and didn't just assume that because the 7805 can handle 35VDC then the entire circuit can as well. Maybe we should find out what happens?

This is why the IDGAF power modules will list two different voltage ranges, one for AC and one for DC, because they are not the same.

You know what really cuts into margins? Explody times.

 

[manfesto]

You know what really cuts into margins? Explody times.

Petition to do a livestream of just feeding a FLWR higher and higher voltages and seeing where it pops

 

[KR Sound]

Petition to do a livestream of just feeding a FLWR higher and higher voltages and seeing where it pops

Yes.

 

[Fama]

This.

Re: that 29Pedals dude in particular, since apparently some people think it was the circuit design and not the designer douchebaggery that was being shat upon -

Were 29Pedals's claim to fame a $100-$150 buffer with a MAX1044 charge pump in a 125B, there'd be nothing really to shit talk because regardless of the complexity of the final design, that's an understandable price and form factor for an MIA pedal with a reasonable parts count (note how of all the things Chase Tone catches shit for around these parts, it's never for their circuit design or pricing) - but you don't get to be the "boutique buffer" guy with products like that nosiree.

It's a bit of an "I know it when I see it" thing sure, but you *know* when a dude over-designs and over-builds a BUFFER - a circuit that has absolutely *no* business being hooked up to an overkill power supply that solves no real-world issues and also apparently draws 144mA when it's idling???, housed in an enclosure that has *no* business being the size of a 1590BB, much less a *custom tooled* enclosure the size of a 1590BB - he's fleecing his customers.

He may not think he is because his margins, like his self-awareness, are low, but he's still trying to be the "you know my shit is boutique just look how expensive fancy my buffer is" guy. That's his *selling point* - that his shit's needlessly expensive so it *must* be good - like someone hocking designer handbags, or a guy who thinks he's clever to put a motorcycle engine in a car body and price it like a truck, assuming the people buying it aren't smart enough to look past the novelty to see the absurdity. That's both transparently obvious and very gross. It's disrespectful of his consumers, regardless of if he himself is even aware that's what he's doing.

I find that shit unsavory, and speaking for myself I feel no shame or guilt calling him or anybody else out on it - and should they come in loudly and rudely like 29Pedals dude did, I feel no shame or guilt being loud and rude right back (but moreso, because I'm pretty good at being loud and rude).

Don't come into a space (online or otherwise) with more bluster than sense and expect to be treated half as well as you think you deserve to be.

-----

(Also, I don't care how low your margins are, if you've somehow managed to fuck up designing a buffer *so* hard that you'd be losing money if you weren't charging $300, your design is indeed straight-up *bad*. You either did it by choice (because you want to be the "boutique buffer" guy), or by mistake (because you couldn't optimize either your design or your BoM to hit more reasonable price points, the way a *good* designer would (a good designer would've dropped that fucking 144mA-at-idle power supply *regardless* of its development time and cost, so leaving it in is either sunken-cost-fallacy hubris or I-need-to-justify-my-pricepoint malice)), but either way your design is *bad*.

I think that's pretty well put, and the designer handbag comparison is reasonably apt.

With a designer handbag you're (I assume, tbh I'm not very deep into the designer handbag scene) buying a status symbol. You pay a small amount for the actual handbag, and a large share for Being A Person Who Has A Designer Handbag.

With the EUNA, you pay a smaller amount of money for a pretty good buffer (from what I understand) which has some nice EQ options and a weird power solution. But you pay a larger share for Being The Person Who Has An EUNA, Look It Can Take Any Voltage Isn't That Cool. That part is fine - everyone can do with their money more or less what they want.

But the thing is, there is this image that the EUNA is this ultra max super great tone enhancer that does something that nothing else can do, because just look at that price it wouldn't cost that much if it wasn't worth it and all these cool IG people have one and swear by it. It's not completely the designer's fault, but it is for sure at least partially his fault.

And that's the part I take issue with, just like I think it's fine to call out Cornish when he flat out lies in his pedal descriptions (as should everyone else be called out who tells literal lies in their pedal descriptions). Some people get swept away by GAS and buy the EUNA because they think that it's the only missing piece to elevate their tone to the heavens, and if it costs a lot, well, sometimes it do be like that. And they have no idea that they could get identical performance in a smaller box for much cheaper - they are paying for the status symbol part without necessarily knowing about it.

Of course it's up to everyone to decide for themselves whether they see that as an issue or not (or maybe you see the situation in a completely different light), and I'm not going to assume that the 29 pedals guy is doing it maliciously (maybe he figured it's a cool thing for other people too, and if they wanted a cheaper buffer they could just get someone else's cheaper buffer). Aaaand I also understand that he might react badly to having his pedals traced and might not be able to control his reactions very easily. But I don't think he's really selling his superior buffer circuit as much as he is selling everything else around it, and in that light tracing the circuit shouldn't be a big hit for him financially.

And if it IS a big hit for him financially, maybe it means the customers actually just wanted a cheap, good buffer with some nice EQ options, and he was making it cost way too much for no good reason?

 

[giovanni]

Whenever I see discussions like this, I wonder if we are all just complaining about how capitalism works. There are no rules in the free market and we all know that private companies’ only goal is to make money and squeeze as much out of customers as they can. Intellectual honesty and integrity have no place in private industries I’m afraid (I don’t want to give examples because I don’t want this to turn political ).

What do you guys think about that?

 

[Fama]

Whenever I see discussions like this, I wonder if we are all just complaining about how capitalism works. There are no rules in the free market and we all know that private companies’ only goal is to make money and squeeze as much out of customers as they can. Intellectual honesty and integrity have no place in private industries I’m afraid (I don’t want to give examples because I don’t want this to turn political ).

What do you guys think about that?

I think that's a very cynical view of things.

 

[Big Monk]

Whenever I see discussions like this, I wonder if we are all just complaining about how capitalism works. There are no rules in the free market and we all know that private companies’ only goal is to make money and squeeze as much out of customers as they can. Intellectual honesty and integrity have no place in private industries I’m afraid (I don’t want to give examples because I don’t want this to turn political ).

If I have my impartial observer's hat on, I agree with this. Businesses of any variety are in the market to make money. Full Stop.

What do you guys think about that?

With that said, I do think there is an expectation for the best of companies to be honest, have integrity, and provide good service to their customers.

The problem I typically have are DIY types, to which applies to me to a certain degree, who attribute a nefarious and purposeful lack of honesty and integrity to certain builders.

One thing I've learned from having a budding side gig in selling pedals is that it's HARD to design (not necessarily talking about the actual circuit here) something from board to box and charge a fair price while also not doing it at a loss or simply breaking even.

Point being, it's hard enough simply building a quality product, making it look aesthetically pleasing, packaging it well and getting it shipped to people without some Keyboard Cowboy raking you through the mud because they think you are trying to take advantage of people.

 

[Laundryroom David]

can I have “keyboard cowboy” instead of “well-known member” ??? Please please please