NSFW What's up with the buffers in cornish designs?

I understand the 29 Pedals guy being upset about his stuff being traced (especially so quickly), but I also think he's doing a little snake oil sales and some of his defensiveness stems from that as well. When you've got a needlessly overly engineered circuit that you're promoting as better than a simpler design and someone calls you out, it's probably pretty annoying lol. Sometimes it's better not to engage.
 
I understand the 29 Pedals guy being upset about his stuff being traced (especially so quickly), but I also think he's doing a little snake oil sales and some of his defensiveness stems from that as well. When you've got a needlessly overly engineered circuit that you're promoting as better than a simpler design and someone calls you out, it's probably pretty annoying lol. Sometimes it's better not to engage.

The possibility also exists he doesn't see it that way.

Remember, not everyone is an engineer. Most people selling pedals started in DIY just like us.
 
It may also be that there is a whole different perspective from the 29Pedals person into their design and architectural knowledge, which we are just not getting because how things went down meant that discussion can't be had. Like I said, I doubt many people are out to fleece the overall pedal community (such a naive human I am) and there is likely some logical design decisions into what they're doing (not debating the correctness or not). Maybe there are reasons for their over engineering which we don't understand, maybe there's just over engineering instead of a simple solution.

I always remember that thing which went around.. "Americans spent millions making a pen which would work in a weightless environment for space, Soviets just used a pencil.." Everyone would laugh about the smart simple solution. The actual point was that graphite shavings cause shorts and fire is not a fun thing in enclosed environments far from home.
 
I always remember that thing which went around.. "Americans spent millions making a pen which would work in a weightless environment for space, Soviets just used a pencil.." Everyone would laugh about the smart simple solution. The actual point was that graphite shavings cause shorts and fire is not a fun thing in enclosed environments far from home.
2) When powered by AC a full-wave bridge rectifier outputs a DC voltage approximately 1.414 times the input voltage. This means if the pedal is powered on 35V AC the 7805 regulator is being blasted with 49VDC. The 7805 has an absolute maximum of 35V. I can not confirm that the pedal will function properly on 35V AC......

🫣
 
Don't get me wrong. I don't think the 29 Pedals guy is being malicious. If he was trying to fleece people he would have made the design simpler/cheaper to produce to make even more money. It seems like he geniunely believes in his design. Personally to me it just seems like cork sniffer BS to run a buffer at such a high voltage, but the effects loop for other effects like fuzzes is a nice touch. That's just my opinion. I'd love to compare a EUNA to running something like a Micro Amp at unity volume. My gut feeling is there would be no audible difference beyond placebo effect.
 
It may also be that there is a whole different perspective from the 29Pedals person into their design and architectural knowledge, which we are just not getting because how things went down meant that discussion can't be had. […] Maybe there are reasons for their over engineering which we don't understand, maybe there's just over engineering instead of a simple solution.
When “things went down” the guy straight up admitted that the case and power supply were what made his product “cool” versus what was already on the market.

Sometimes a cigar is a cigar.

(The charitable view is that dude sunk time and resources into designing a power supply (well, retrofitting an existing power supply for use by pedals, but sure, let’s charitably say “designing”) that can take any input voltage because he was trying to solve the apparently universal problem of “I can’t afford a 1spot to power my boutique pedals!” (I mean we’ve all been there right?), and (again, being charitable) due to sunken cost fallacy logic just can’t admit to himself that the cost and current draw, at least for the things he’s hooking them up to (buffers, boosts, overdrives), is *ridiculous*.)

To bring it back to Cornish and this thread, at least Cornish’s buffer solved a problem and is a genuine selling point. It wasn’t “cool” for the sake of it.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think the 29 Pedals guy is being malicious.
Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

He doesn't need to be aware that he's fleecing his customers for it to be true.
 
So by your definition and opinion @manfesto, an over-engineered product is considered fleecing a customer?

to take a lot of money from someone by charging them too much
Well, I'd say it fits the definition more or less if you make the product too expensive by adding unnecessary stuff. Not all dictionaries include that definition, I think it's more commonly used with some connotation of fraud or scam, but I'd say "it costs too much partially because of the unnecessary power solution" is a big part of the complaints I've heard. Or just "it costs too much for what it is". The creator doesn't have to make bank on it, necessarily, for the definition to apply.
 


Well, I'd say it fits the definition more or less if you make the product too expensive by adding unnecessary stuff. Not all dictionaries include that definition, I think it's more commonly used with some connotation of fraud or scam, but I'd say "it costs too much partially because of the unnecessary power solution" is a big part of the complaints I've heard. Or just "it costs too much for what it is". The creator doesn't have to make bank on it, necessarily, for the definition to apply.

At best, that's a definition without criteria.

At worst, it's a totally subjective definition.

It's been discussed here a few times, but as someone who has had to do a number of cost analyses now on my own stuff, you would be very surprised what it costs, even with a basic circuit, to deliver a quality, aesthetically pleasing and functional device.
 


Well, I'd say it fits the definition more or less if you make the product too expensive by adding unnecessary stuff. Not all dictionaries include that definition, I think it's more commonly used with some connotation of fraud or scam, but I'd say "it costs too much partially because of the unnecessary power solution" is a big part of the complaints I've heard. Or just "it costs too much for what it is". The creator doesn't have to make bank on it, necessarily, for the definition to apply.
I think he just overbuilt it because he (29Pedals guy) thought it needed it. Then he added his value on top of it and made the power supply a selling point because he was proud of it.
From the manufacturer's POV it is not unnecessary.
 
I think he just overbuilt it because he (29Pedals guy) thought it needed it. Then he added his value on top of it and made the power supply a selling point because he was proud of it.
From the manufacturer's POV it is not unnecessary.
Again, it doesn't matter how much the snake oil salesman believes his salves cure diseases, he's still selling snake oil.

I'm sure most people in MLMs believe in what they're doing; people should still stay the fuck away from them at all costs.

Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
 
Anyone who thinks there is a lot of easy money in the pedal industry hasn't had to run a business at any sort of scale. Just look at the brilliant commercial builders we have on the forum (I'm not calling anyone out on purpose), they have awesome stuff and have good demand. How many still have their day jobs?

It's been discussed here a few times, but as someone who has had to do a number of cost analyses now on my own stuff, you would be very surprised what it costs, even with a basic circuit, to deliver a quality, aesthetically pleasing and functional device.

I've never run a business, but just doing the napkin math, it's pretty easy to see why it's insultingly naive to say (for any product), "You're charging 10x when the cost of components is only x! Ripoff! Scam!"

It's not just pedals. I've seen this play out on the myriad forums I've been on (going back to the Usenet days, to date myself), and people always bellyache about the cost of boutique items when "I could make that myself for 1/10 what he's charging!"

Hyperbolic marketing also exists beyond the pedal world. Go look up "audiophile-grade" power cables that cost over $1k. And then go read audiophile forums where people are absolutely convinced that $1500 power cable was like "removing a pillow from the front of my speakers". If the person who bought that cable truly feels it improves their listening experience, then it was a fair trade for both the seller and buyer.

And status symbols are nothing new. I wear $13 Urban Star brand jeans from Costo, which fit me great and seem pretty well made. But you can easily spend 10x that (and more) on jeans. Different strokes for different folks! I'd rather have more money for guitar stuff! But there's probably a doppelganger of me writing the exact opposite post on a fashion forum right now, poking fun of my cheapness.

I read this many years ago, I found it interesting: Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up. It's the story of how Schiit Audio got started, written by one of the founders. I don't own and never have owned any Schiit products, but the story is interesting as an autobiographical account of a small business startup. No matter how you feel about the company, it gives some perspective on what goes into starting, running and growing a business.
 
I've never run a business, but just doing the napkin math, it's pretty easy to see why it's insultingly naive to say (for any product), "You're charging 10x when the cost of components is only x! Ripoff! Scam!"

It's not just pedals. I've seen this play out on the myriad forums I've been on (going back to the Usenet days, to date myself), and people always bellyache about the cost of boutique items when "I could make that myself for 1/10 what he's charging!"

Again, nobody would be shitting on 29Pedals's shit if it was a $150 boost in a 125B with a MAX1044 charge pump, because (especially here in a DIY pedal community where we all have a pretty fucking good idea both of what pedals cost and what we'd need to charge to turn a profit) we know that's what it would cost to build something like that and turn a profit.

We shit on 29Pedals because most of his cost is in a power supply that solves no issues (and creates new ones, and also many or may not actually operate safely within its stated spec). Any decent designer would've realized "holy shit even though I spent way too much fucking time and money developing this power supply, there's absolutely no reason a buffer needs to draw 144mA at idle, I'll remove it from the design because it's ridiculous", but instead he tried to turn it into a selling point for his oversized boxes.

Also because he personally came onto this forum being a giant fucking douchebag, which can not be overstated enough.

Hyperbolic marketing also exists beyond the pedal world. Go look up "audiophile-grade" power cables that cost over $1k. And then go read audiophile forums where people are absolutely convinced that $1500 power cable was like "removing a pillow from the front of my speakers".

Yeah, and I spend a lot of time talking people out of buying shit like overpriced cables, too. We all should be, because those industries are built on bullshit. Just because it *does* exist, doesn't mean it *should* exist, much less exist unchallenged.

If the person who bought that cable truly feels it improves their listening experience, then it was a fair trade for both the seller and buyer.

Hard disagree. Just because it's not illegal, doesn't mean it's fair, doesn't mean one party is pretty damn clearly taking advantage of another party's ignorance.
 
The pedal business
Anyone who thinks there is a lot of easy money in the pedal industry hasn't had to run a business at any sort of scale.
Did literally anybody on this forum *ever* say this? Like, not even just in this thread, but *ever*?

We all know what raw parts costs are, we all can do enough math to know what we'd need to charge to make a living, and that's why most of us don't.

---

But 29Pedals is NOT selling a $50 for $150. He's selling a $50 pedal, strapped to $50 worth of bullshit that do *not* actually improve the product in any meaningful way, for $300.

And then getting absolutely livid when people point out the $50 worth of bullshit is, in fact, bullshit.

Designers shouldn't put bullshit in their designs, and people shouldn't be buying bullshit.

(I say "shouldn't" because obviously both things are happening, a lot, but that doesn't mean those things should happen unchallenged.)

Original designs
Apart from a few scammers, designers are putting their heart into making things they believe are better. EUNA included.
Again, it doesn't matter if the snake oil salesman "believe"s his salve cures diseases, he's still the one selling snake oil and should absolutely be called out on it.

But let's be charitable - credit where credit is due, 29Pedals dude's "real" innovation is his "whatever" power supply (which in my estimation creates more problems than it solves, but-), not the analog circuits he hooks it up to.

Maybe if he wants so badly to be a power supply designer, he should go off and be a power supply designer (hell, sell your tech to Strymon or Eventide, high-draw DSP is an *actually* good use-case for a well-protected power supply).

Because going about it the other way - starting every design with "hmm, what can I hook up to my weird-ass power supply?" and working your way *back* to a modest analog circuit, is just producing laughable results.
 
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