Why aren't folks using better US made vintage germanium diodes?

[hifitown]

Hello everyone,
I have a diode question, this is not a sales post... just here to ask opinions.
The below diodes, near as I can tell are really interesting alternatives to IN34's
When I came into a quantity (hundreds!) of super cool. super early Germanium diodes (historical point contact too) , that were well spec'd and ridulously overbuilt.. I thought, "now here's the coolest thing I've ever seen to build or retrofit a pedal around."
The thing I can't understand is.. if you are DiY'ong something.. why use boring, cheap or "reissue / common germanium types" just because they cost $1 and maybe sound OK? Wouldn't it be cooler to use something historical? sure.. maybe these have slightly different behavior .. so do a circuit just for them... or find what they do sub (I think an IN34 may be a good target to replace).... compared to the super cheap 0.30 cent IN34's most builders choose... I would expect these to:

• posses a smoother, more refined clipping effect due to the higher forward voltage drop.
• Potentially warmer sound with more headroom and less aggressive distortion.
• better (or worse?) noise performance due to lower leakage current and extreme age.

Sure, these might cost a whopping $5~10/ea... so that might wreck the appeal for anything mass-produced destined for Best Buy or Amazon. Otherwise, why skimp?
I don't know.. these are old.. they are tiny.. but still huge compared to modern stuff. They are begging for a boutique effect.
And they have really overdone materials inside. Western Electric was Bell Labs, and they were Aerospace and way over-engineered compared to consumer devices.. These are used.. and the ones I have tested on the scope work super well , and have the nice looking Germanium " shoulder or knee". These work a little bit "better" than regular diodes.. they are faster, but not too fast. And they are point-contact, a special type of early construction.
I have had no interest from pedal builders or DiY'ers.. I've even sent off a few samples...
Does anyone know why there is "component / experimenter malaise"? Why are we all just ordering the new, surplus , junk? Is it really than we are all just not willing to deviate a little for the "called for" component? That's not how fuzz happened

 

[Harry Klippton]

A $5 diode is a hard sell for sure. It would have to sound really cool, which I doubt it does

 

[Fama]

I thought it looked a lot like a sales post, but then I noticed you said it's not a sales post, so thank god that was cleared up!

 

[hifitown]

I thought it looked a lot like a sales post, but then I noticed you said it's not a sales post, so thank god that was cleared up!

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Seriously ... I am not interested in selling on here - I want thoughts and comments from real builders and hobbyists who do this stuff - I am not hiding that I am a parts dealer.... but I sell on other sites or my own. I am just wondering, despite the technical possibility, the brand (in other areas of audio, WE is revered) -- why these have been of little interest. The pedal business / community seems so creative -- I am shocked about the lack of open mindedness on Solid State devices. Heck, if it were not for pedal's .. all the Germanium devices would have been trashed years ago!

 

[jwin615]

Aren't point contact diodes susceptible to microphonic behavior?
Also, a lot of us toy with other germanium diodes. It's pretty circuit dependant on how much the diode matters. If you're feeding a highly gained signal, say 1.5v p-p into a 0.2vf hard clipping stage, you're never dancing on the knee of most diodes past a millisecond or few.
This is very much the case in a signal that's already clipped, say like the second clippiny stage of a big muff. The way more practical/beneficial but to take into account, imo, at that stage is whats the Vf of the diode at the signal's V at that node.
I say all this as a person with a couple dozen different Ge diodes in my collection. Their use and placement seem more well suited in circuit before much gain occurs, which isn't how most pedals are made anymore. Some were, in the early days by default because the transistors used didn't have as much gain and (many of)the guitars didn't have as high an output.
Maybe that makes sense. It does in my goes but it doesn't always come out correctly...

 

[hifitown]

A $5 diode is a hard sell for sure. It would have to sound really cool, which I doubt it does

I get that comment..... OK, so what's the big deal, if I am building a single .. and I use these US made devices (made by some worker 60 years ago, who got a pension) vs overseas sweat shop... and I spend $20 more.. don't I just sleep better at night?

Or if I were a mfr'... boutique that is (not Amazon) and the Pedal cost's $300... would not these just be a bragging right? Surely it would not destroy profit... that just does not make sense. Maybe a screw... but if it's in the Signal path, that's no time to cheap out.

I've been doing audio a while... and I can't think of an area in audio where people don't notice a difference. Disregarding the the empirical specs, which would sound different than say an IN34 (because of the the FVD difference)).. you have tons of materials-science going on in one of these.. just like the difference of a vintage Germanium transistor. Folks can hear (or at least think they can) resistors, pots, and even wire (just ask the Audiophiles, haha.

These based on what I saw on a scope would be quite a bit warmer vs a cheapie.

 

[jwin615]

All that to say, there's diminishing returns in most designs. Adding 20% cost to your build for magic beans won't gain a net 20% improvement. It took me a few years to come around to this.
Also, what you see on a scope isn't what you hear on a stage. And most guitarists are half deaf.
No one here is a mojobuilder for profit as a sole income. I'm sure there are yacht rock lawyers will pay more for it but anyone here who is building for profit likely isn't pandering to that crowd and is also probably building at capacity. The $300 fuzz isn't heralded as an accomplishment in these parts. That's TGP material.

 

[hifitown]

Aren't point contact diodes susceptible to microphonic behavior?
Also, a lot of us toy with other germanium diodes. It's pretty circuit dependant on how much the diode matters. If you're feeding a highly gained signal, say 1.5v p-p into a 0.2vf hard clipping stage, you're never dancing on the knee of most diodes past a millisecond or few.
This is very much the case in a signal that's already clipped, say like the second clippiny stage of a big muff. The way more practical/beneficial but to take into account, imo, at that stage is whats the Vf of the diode at the signal's V at that node.
I say all this as a person with a couple dozen different Ge diodes in my collection. Their use and placement seem more well suited in circuit before much gain occurs, which isn't how most pedals are made anymore. Some were, in the early days by default because the transistors used didn't have as much gain and (many of)the guitars didn't have as high an output.
Maybe that makes sense. It does in my goes but it doesn't always come out correctly...

Good point on both.. Microphonic's might well be an issue for some of the early devices (1940's.) These were mil-spec 1950/60ss and they kept Point Contact well after developing easier processes for some reason .. I am not sure why (must have been a good reason) and I am pretty sure these were heavily ruggedized to avoid that (all WE devices were). (I forgot to post the other photo which shows a blow-apart) -- compared to other diodes these are the literal brick-outhouse.....see below.
I also wonderd about the 0.2vf vs the 0.5vf and figured that would just be a circuit tweak, if-at-all (assuming it's not benefecial as a simple drop in)
Interestingly, WECo never stopped building germanium.. they used, a special type of Ge Alloy, that took more heat. They built stuff for early satellites (the early TelStar sat got flow through the Nuke could to see how many Solid State parts they could fry).

Anyway... again to all ... this is not a sales post. I've never encountered more shyness to a quality audio part. I want people to experiment with parts like this -- I think lack of experimentation is the problem. . Some say, but I won't find any... No, I say They are still find-able. I found hundreds...and you can rip them out of old telephone equipment or military gear.. just look around.
To that end... If any one want to try building something using them at-any-stage... I am willing to send a sample or two -- so long as you report back with results
I have seen so many cases in audio (tubes, speakers etc) .. some lonely trailblazer tries something .. rediscovered...then everybody is doing it... ain't that just life!
I wanted to bread-board out a few things.. but just have not had the time.

 

[hifitown]

All that to say, there's diminishing returns in most designs. Adding 20% cost to your build for magic beans won't gain a net 20% improvement. It took me a few years to come around to this.
Also, what you see on a scope isn't what you hear on a stage. And most guitarists are half deaf.
No one here is a mojobuilder for profit as a sole income. I'm sure there are yacht rock lawyers will pay more for it but anyone here who is building for profit likely isn't pandering to that crowd and is also probably building at capacity. The $300 fuzz isn't heralded as an accomplishment in these parts. That's TGP material.

I get the comment on 'scope viewing.. it's the same all across audio, agreed.. ( try to tell some of the engineers that, haha). If figure if it's not viewable with a diode, then what is? Everybody seems to say tone is all about Forward Voltage.. but then why the big bucks for Caps, CTS pots? Maybe folks have just not thought of this yet. In receivers, I can readily hear the difference between replacement and original transistors, of the exact same type (granted they are silicon)
My feeling is, like in cooking.. quality ingredients in = good dish served.
Can you make a gourmet meal with spam and cheese whiz? Maybe, but I don't see how, or why.
The last thought is... the most curious to me...the Yacht Rock Lawyers -- in many other areas of life, showing them the magic beans, as it were is exactly how you get the respect, and is often a closely held secret of many chef's.
Anyway, magic beans may not be quite fair .. I posted a blow apart on these in one of the replys below.. these diodes were super costly.. they have semi precious metals and parts inside, where the other diodes have none and just a glob jabbed in glass...... that alone should be worth something I'd think.

 

[Bricksnbeatles]

OK, so what's the big deal, if I am building a single .. and I use these US made devices (made by some worker 60 years ago, who got a pension) vs overseas sweat shop... and I spend $20 more.. don't I just sleep better at night?

I care about the ethics about things being made now, but I don’t really see any ethical difference between old-stock components made in the US vs anywhere else for me as the end-user. The factories are long gone, the people who made them are likely long gone too. The money paid in either case is not going towards the original manufacturer or funding the exploitation of anyone. There are plenty of injustices today to fight against without preoccupying myself with questions of the labor practices of second-hand relics from half a century ago.

 

[jwin615]

I get the comment on 'scope viewing.. it's the same all across audio, agreed.. ( try to tell some of the engineers that, haha). If figure if it's not viewable with a diode, then what is? Everybody seems to say tone is all about Forward Voltage.. but then why the big bucks for Caps, CTS pots? Maybe folks have just not thought of this yet. In receivers, I can readily hear the difference between replacement and original transistors, of the exact same type (granted they are silicon)
My feeling is, like in cooking.. quality ingredients in = good dish served.
Can you make a gourmet meal with spam and cheese whiz? Maybe, but I don't see how, or why.
The last thought is... the most curious to me...the Yacht Rock Lawyers -- in many other areas of life, showing them the magic beans, as it were is exactly how you get the respect, and is often a closely held secret of many chef's.
Anyway, magic beans may not be quite fair .. I posted a blow apart on these in one of the replys below.. these diodes were super costly.. they have semi precious metals and parts inside, where the other diodes have none and just a glob jabbed in glass...... that alone should be worth something I'd think.

Pots: 16mm, cheap and easy to replace and not too big. 9mm pots are better long term, though a pita to replace and to some degree, design around, and the diy pedal community just hasn't embraced them much. Many offer a few degrees less throw as well. But, for something being stepped on all its life, ease of repair probably should take president.
Caps: the community is all over the place, I'm moving to WIMAs and micas in the audio path, tants where I have to, no ceramic/mlcc/electros (in thw audio path). Others could care less, because it's just a guitar pedal. And they're not wrong. These things aren't made for fidelity, at least dirt pedals aren't. They're very crude devices with limited bandwidth and filters that induce huge amounts of phase shift/smear being pushed into amplification stages that offer more of the same. It's often the things that are *bad* about the circuit that gives them their charm. No one plays guitar through a McIntosh. I think that may be a difference in pedals vs the audio world that you're missing. Any higher end components that aren't in place for purpose of lower noise floor or reliability are often just added expense with no or little real world return. I say all this as someone with both AE and EE background/education. Compared to hifi and pro audio, analog pedals are stone aged imperfect circuits.
We're all building spam burgers down here.

 

[hifitown]

I care about the ethics about things being made now, but I don’t really see any ethical difference between old-stock components made in the US vs anywhere else for me as the end-user. The factories are long gone, the people who made them are likely long gone too. The money paid in either case is not going towards the original manufacturer or funding the exploitation of anyone. There are plenty of injustices today to fight against without preoccupying myself with questions of the labor practices of second-hand relics from half a century ago.

If you are buying always old-stock... point taken and surely a slippery slope, that has nothing to do with tone, that is agreed. The end sound is I agree, most important. If cheesewhiz from Amazon is required to to it, then so-be-it. But, my argument is no one has tried the 10 year aged parmesian block from Whole Foods. When they do.. Katy, Bar the door, that's my guess...all the cool kids will want them.
Years ago, everyone had to have their classic car polished with brand new DuPont glitter paint. We always thought that looked awful & wrong on a Studebaker. Now, the keep the rust, and rub linseed oil in it... now that is vehicular tone!!

It's a very minor point, and I thought they were making fake Ge (and others) diodes in China and selling them on Amazon... which is what I was referring to.

You really should avoid sending your $$ that way if you can. For what it's worth, back in the 1950's, WECo (part of the Telephone company) was probably the very best place to work for. Employees got nice pensions, the place integrated early postwar, women worked there, etc.

The (3) R's .. Reduce, ReUse, Recycle, don't get much fanfare, especially the first two, as they discourage tampant, wasteful capitalism, lol. But it is "cool" to use... A: something made long ago, where cost was literally no object. B: something pulled from surplus equipment (The Reuse bit) because it does save some resources and pollution.

 

[p_wats]

Personally, part of the fun of building pedals for me is to prove that half the time you don't need fancy rare parts to make things that sound equally good (subjectively speaking) with readily accessible standard stuff

 

[KR Sound]

We're all building spam burgers down here.

Yep!

 

[Guardians of the analog]

@hifitown this feels like a sales pitch, and to be honest it's a really weak one. No one is interested by your own admission. Why would anyone want to invest that much in a diode? Even analogman isn't try to sell this kind of snake oil in his KOT. You are being super pushy here with something no one wants or asked for, and at a price that makes zero sense to the typical builder. All this doesn't take into account the impracticality of the diodes themselves. They are big and cumbersome, using them in a typical build with a cramped board will add unnecessary work and likely complications that many will feel are not worth the effort. The final nail in the coffin for me and those who want a clean looking board...these things are ugly AF and I can't have that on one my builds

 

[Passinwind]

I get that comment..... OK, so what's the big deal, if I am building a single .. and I use these US made devices (made by some worker 60 years ago, who got a pension) vs overseas sweat shop... and I spend $20 more.. don't I just sleep better at night?

With all due respect, hell no. I worked in a number of "iconic" electronics factories starting in 1970, and it mostly sucked. Sweatshops is exactly what those places were.

But hey, I hope you stick around and contribute some cool original circuits here.

 

[Feral Feline]

... I am willing to send a sample or two -- so long as you report back with results
...

There are quite a number of people here that I would value having their opinion of these diodes, stemming from their experimenting with them.

Off the top of my head but not limited to the following:
You should send a few to Passinwind, Chuck D. Bones, Guardians of the Analog, DGWVI and Jwin615... I better stop there.


Even if these diodes sound amazing, unless I can get them dirt cheap I'm not the target customer.

Unlike GOTA, I think they look interesting. However apart from differences between types of diodes clipping, from what I've read it's the forward voltage that determines the sound — for example if a vintage silicon diode that's unobtanium and a modern silicon diode still in production have the same forward voltage, there will be little if any difference in sound.

In your OP, you said

Does anyone know why there is "component / experimenter malaise"? Why are we all just ordering the new, surplus , junk? Is it really than we are all just not willing to deviate a little for the "called for" component? That's not how fuzz happened

I'd have to disagree. DIYers are MORE THAN WILLING TO DEVIATE and experiment.

There are a number of circuits that people desire and continue to build, but have been forced by the scarcity of original components' and associated high costs to obtain newer more readily available parts and tweak the circuit as needed to make the newer part work (if it's not a direct replacement), to get as close to the original circuit's sound as possible.

By way of example, the IC used in several compressor/noise-gate/limiter circuits — THAT4301P

An original IC could fetch as much as US$45 back when I tried to find one a few years ago. People far more clever than myself in this regard have developed a workaround with the THAT4305.

Tried to find an OC44 or buy an OC71 of late? Yet the number of Range Master derivatives continues to grow... both in the DIY community and in the commercial-pedal realms.

 

[LukeFRC]

Personally, part of the fun of building pedals for me is to prove that half the time you don't need fancy rare parts to make things that sound equally good (subjectively speaking) with readily accessible standard stuff

I was going to say similar.

For me the guitar/bass world is full of daft 'mojo', badly understood science, debates on "tone wood" and often focusing on things that matter not one bit (colour of pick guard) vs that that does (erm, practicing?)

I got into making pedals as I saw people on a bass post raving about a £200 pedal, and found a schematic and saw it had about 8 parts in it... I build things because it's fun, but also, If I don't price my time it's often cheaper than buying the equivalent.

If I ever got the the point where I thought the £5 diode was that much better than the £0.05 one I should probably be looking for proper engineered and manufactured things designed made by cleverer people than me.



Also age = better might be a thing with old stock timber, but I'm fairly sure the electronics in the laptop I'm typing on are better than that that from the 1950's from a mechanical and tolerances POV - so if the "mojo" is the inperfection?

 

[darwin999]

@hifitown
Thanks for making us aware of the WE 400 diodes, as a former Bell Labs research guy, it's cool to see old Western Electric stuff being useful.
And looking around, I even found some at a lower price - so I'll give them a try.
And don't let any harsh comments get you down, we pedal builders are a very diverse crowd.

 

[LukeFRC]

Plus true DIY spirit: If I cared I'ld go find my own 1950's parts!