"Close Enough" Sub For Germanium Diodes

G

Ginsly

Well-known member
There are a couple fuzz circuits I want to try that call for germanium diodes - either 1N34A or 1N60.

So... are there really that many fakes out there? Reading some reviews, it seems like there are lots that claim to be germanium that aren't - I'm not sure how sellers can get away with that on a large platform like Amazon... Maybe I'm being naive!

They seem a little hard to find, but I'm still kinda figuring out sourcing for different parts.

I'd love to try em, but it may be tricky or expensive. Any "close enough" subs?

It sounded like BAT41 might sound close, and some people mention adding a resistor (though I don't know what value, or if series/parallel).

Should I even bother with the added resistor?
 
This depends how the GE diodes are being used. If all you're doing is throwing signal to ground via hard clippers, then find a forward voltage that's similar. I've got real and fake 1N34As and the forward voltage is similar.
 
@BuddytheReow This is one I wanted to try. The schematic has 1N34A or 1N60 listed for D2 & D3, but if they're not THAT crucial then I'm happy to use something I already have!
Animal Factory Baron Samedi Fuzz.png
 
To point you in the right direction, it looks like the signal goes from Q1 to Q2. Q2 is a PNP BJT, so collector to ground here. D1, D2, and D3 are hard clipping diodes to ground where D2 and D3 are in series to give a higher forward voltage. You'll be fine putting whatever in there, but each diode has it's own character in terms of clipping. Stripboard is incredible forgiving so there's almost no need for sockets. You can put them in if you want.

Edit: To your original questions, you could use a BAT41 in lieu of 1N34A. The forward voltages will be close enough.
 
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@BuddytheReow Gotcha, thank you so much!! It seems like the difference between a BAT41 and 1N34A may not be worth the trouble - for now! Ha... I'm sure as people learn this stuff they get more and more granular about variations.

@jhaneyzz That link is VERY helpful. I remember seeing it weeks ago, and I just bookmarked it. Much appreciated.

@Erik S Excellent, thanks! I'd feel secure buying from either of those places knowing the parts were real.
 
Ginsly said:
I'm not sure how sellers can get away with that on a large platform like Amazon.
Click to expand...
You can get good parts on Amazon, you just have to be careful of the seller. There are a few on there that I don't have any issues with. The key is to find the ones you like and buy from them.
 
@chris.knudson Seems to be the case, much like eBay. Care to share some reliable sellers on Amazon? There are much better places to go I realize, but sometimes I find myself with Amazon credits to burn! It seemed like Chanzon was pretty decent, but their 1N34As are likely fake, if some of the reviews are to be believed... Who would ya trust with 1N34As or 1N60s there?
 
Ginsly said:
Care to share some reliable sellers on Amazon?
Click to expand...
I've had good luck with Juried Engineering, Chanzon, Allecin, Bojack, Edgelec, and many others. The key is to look for sellers that have more than 50 reviews with rating score over 4. I always read the reviews. If they are selling fakes, someone will usually say so in the reviews. And, sometimes I just take a chance since I'm a prime member and it's just cheaper and easier, but yeah, I have occasionally gotten some sketchy parts. When I'm buying expensive ICs or something that has to be in a specific tolerance, then I'll usually pay up and wait for it, otherwise, I'll take a chance for the time, cost and convenience.
 
chris.knudson said:
Chanzon, Allecin, Bojack
Click to expand...
It's funny, I had checked out 1N34As from all three of these mostly-ok Amazon brands, and in each one there were reviews like this: "The 1n34A is a point contact diode. These diodes are junction diodes" or "Fakes. These are re-labeled Schottky diodes". I'm wondering if there are ANY real 1N34As or 1N60s on Amazon, if these brands are selling fakes too... 🤷‍♂️
 
jhaneyzz said:
You can easily find Schottky or Silicon diodes to match the values of those Germaniums in this excellent web page:
www.guitarpedalx.com

A Brief Hobbyist Primer on Clipping Diodes

A general reference guide on how Clipping Diodes Work
www.guitarpedalx.com www.guitarpedalx.com
Click to expand...
+1 for this resource. In testing various clipping diodes sets I found this invaluable. One Man's Opinion™ is that the BAT4x come the closest in a number of applications.

Ginsly said:
I'm wondering if there are ANY real 1N34As or 1N60s on Amazon
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I'm extremely skeptical of anything from Amazon Marketplace sellers for stuff like this.

I got lucky when I found what I did from small US-based sellers on eBay for my 1N270s and 1N34As. I just won't shop amazon for any sort of r@re semiconductors (or even common ones after I found out my entire supply of TL072s are fakes). And eBay is a rare exception if I can't get it from another member, or reputable vendor mentioned.

Branching a bit here: but what I've found helpful for finding genuine sellers (on eBay anyway) was looking for signs of —admittedly strange—authenticity: borderline bad photos (but still clearly showing what they're selling), and those photos are unique from other listings; i.e. they don't look like the same white-cut-out-background cookie-cutter pics a single supplier sent out to 10 smurf accounts to spread counterfeits.
 
Ginsly said:
It's funny, I had checked out 1N34As from all three of these mostly-ok Amazon brands, and in each one there were reviews like this: "The 1n34A is a point contact diode. These diodes are junction diodes" or "Fakes. These are re-labeled Schottky diodes". I'm wondering if there are ANY real 1N34As or 1N60s on Amazon, if these brands are selling fakes too... 🤷‍♂️
Click to expand...
Both can be true.
NTE has 1N34As that aren't germanium but still labeled with the same part. They're "functionally equivalent"(which is all NTE has ever care about in their relabeling anyway...)
 
So, this guy is asymmetrical clipping to ground.
The imbalance of the clipping threshold of the diodes is what's most important. There are benefits to get diodes(I believe) in soft clipping. But in hard clipping, you don't hear any of the signal that passes through the diode. Doesn't matter. In the circuit posted theres a .68/.48 Vf ratio(using guitar pedals #, and assuming 1n34as, not checking data). Or about 3/2 ratio. Aim for something close to that, keep the high side under .8v and low side above .4(no UV LEDs or single germs).
 
jwin615 said:
There are benefits to get diodes(I believe) in soft clipping. But in hard clipping, you don't hear any of the signal that passes through the diode. Doesn't matter.
Click to expand...
Is that consensus? Just asking!
That means Germ diodes only for softclippers?
 
hamerfan said:
Is that consensus? Just asking!
That means Germ diodes only for softclippers?
Click to expand...
You can use Ge for hard clippers IF you really want to clamp down via the low Vf. When you stack 2 Ge it ~doubles the clipping level(.3ish to .6ish). You aren't getting that benefit then.
There is the debate about the knee of the diode, which may make a tonal difference to golden ear players. That could yield a bit of variation in sustained notes or signals teetering on the edge of clipping. That difference will be lost to component variation and in a mix scenario. This is more pronounced in soft clipping usages.
The effect would be lost further if there are other clipping stages in the circuit. It's just not that important at that point.
You can do it, and it may make a 1% difference but don't spend $12 on a pair of unobtanium Ge diodes for hard clippers.
In the posted circuit, the variation of Vf of the clippers between the positive and negative ends of the signal cycle has a wildly larger impact than the actual type of diode, re asymmetrical clipping.
One caveat to that statement is when used in a bridge rectifier like in the brassmaster. Then, the low Vf completely affects the dynamics of the entire pedal.(and be sure to match Vf when using a bridge rectifier for best/clearest octave)
To sum up, TLDR, Ge makes a difference in hard clipping if used as a single diode, not stacked, due to low Vf. That yields more compression by the clipping.

But won't take my word for it, try it out. Stack two Ges, measure the Vf, and match the Vf with another diode. Put the two on a switch.

I'd recommend grabbing a few bags of Russian Gendiodes off eBay
Alexer1 is a good seller of them from Ukraine. Be sure to ask for combined shipping (on/in desktop site). They're so cheap that you don't really have to worry at that point
That's my semi-scientific opinion
Not sure on consensus

SQtA.gif
 
The good thing about Schottky diodes is they're temperature-stable.

I know that if you get the fV right, they'll sound the same, but I've also read that the "knee" is different for Ge to Si, the former being more gradual (and thus amplike) while the latter are more abrupt. Maybe that's true on the oscilloscope, but ... would you even be able to hear a difference in the onset of clipping?
 
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