Why don't PedalPCB build docs tell you what trimmers are for?

[Guardians of the analog]

At the risk of being misinterpreted, and/or getting off on the wrong foot as a forum newbie...

As a pedal building noob, I have to provide a contrast to some of the sentiments above. The fact PedalPCB offers so much is amazing, but I have to honest: the terse documentation is a speedbump to entry for people who are just starting out like me. The amount of assumed prior knowledge in PedalPCB docs can be frustrating. I would love to have at least recommendations on what kinds of caps, diodes, resistors to use in what spots (film? ceramic? etc). I realize that's often open to tinkering for different results, but having part callouts for a "default" benchmark build would really help A LOT. Not just in building, but in discussion as well.

I absolutely respect that it's all being done by one guy, and given the huge volume of boards in his catalog, I absolutely can't fault him if it's too much work. If he can't or doesn't want to do it, that's his call.

BUT, with all due respect, folks here actually praising and encouraging that kind of lack of info as a general practice sets a really bad precedent. You may personally be advanced, and that's cool for you, but saying stuff like "it's everything you need and nothing you don't" (YIKES, is that untrue), or "I like being treated like I know what I'm doing" (pulling the ladder up behind you in over an ego thing that ultimately exists in your head instead of the documentation), or "I prefer less because I like to print everything out" (treating major value for many others as disposable compared to a convenience to a quirky practice that may be unique to you) is corrosive in the bigger picture.

A lot of these ideas in practice manifest as unintentional gatekeeping. Catering to the egos and non-standard quirks of old hands at the cost of making it harder than it needs to be for new blood to enter.

Good documentation makes learning WAY easier and more efficient. It can often be a difference between just two minutes of close reading a doc, vs, half an hour of combing forums and trying to parse the one simple bit of needed info from a quagmire of semi-unrelated "did you try this?" troubleshooting discussions that I don't yet have the expertise to learn from.

And again: all I'd personally want is specified cap/resistor/diode types for build benchmarking (like Coda Effects and Breakfast Audio have in their docs). Just that alone would be the single biggest help. And again: I understand if PedalPCB himself has to pick his battles when it comes to his time, energy, or interest. It's the community appearing to gather around the idea that the quality of documentation can be measured by how exclusively it caters to experts and grognards that's throwing up red flags for me.

 

[Laundryroom David]

At the risk of being misinterpreted, and/or getting off on the wrong foot as a forum newbie...

As a pedal building noob, I have to provide a contrast to some of the sentiments above. The fact PedalPCB offers so much is amazing, but I have to honest: the terse documentation is a speedbump to entry for people who are just starting out like me. The amount of assumed prior knowledge in PedalPCB docs can be frustrating. I would love to have at least recommendations on what kinds of caps, diodes, resistors to use in what spots (film? ceramic? etc). I realize that's often open to tinkering for different results, but having part callouts for a "default" benchmark build would really help A LOT. Not just in building, but in discussion as well.

I absolutely respect that it's all being done by one guy, and given the huge volume of boards in his catalog, I absolutely can't fault him if it's too much work. If he can't or doesn't want to do it, that's his call.

BUT, with all due respect, folks here actually praising and encouraging that kind of lack of info as a general practice sets a really bad precedent. You may personally be advanced, and that's cool for you, but saying stuff like "it's everything you need and nothing you don't" (YIKES, is that untrue), or "I like being treated like I know what I'm doing" (pulling the ladder up behind you in over an ego thing that ultimately exists in your head instead of the documentation), or "I prefer less because I like to print everything out" (treating major value for many others as disposable compared to a convenience to a quirky practice that may be unique to you) is corrosive in the bigger picture.

A lot of these ideas in practice manifest as unintentional gatekeeping. Catering to the egos and non-standard quirks of old hands at the cost of making it harder than it needs to be for new blood to enter.

Good documentation makes learning WAY easier and more efficient. It can often be a difference between just two minutes of close reading a doc, vs, half an hour of combing forums and trying to parse the one simple bit of needed info from a quagmire of semi-unrelated "did you try this?" troubleshooting discussions that I don't yet have the expertise to learn from.

And again: all I'd personally want is specified cap/resistor/diode types for build benchmarking (like Coda Effects and Breakfast Audio have in their docs). Just that alone would be the single biggest help. And again: I understand if PedalPCB himself has to pick his battles when it comes to his time, energy, or interest. It's the community appearing to gather around the idea that the quality of documentation can be measured by how exclusively it caters to experts and grognards that's throwing up red flags for me.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinions and to heed the red flags you perceive. Or you can read on.

A bit of friendly advice: you are overthinking pedal building. The diode types are listed in the build docs and printed on the boards. The cap types aren’t really critical as long as you know + and - with a round outline on the board = aluminum electrolytic. I often sub ceramic for film and vice versa with no ill effect. Resistors - just use 1% metal film through-hole resistors.

Also understand that ANY build documentation is a suggestion. Parts go out of production all the time. You need to learn where to find the information you need in order to find appropriate substitutes for parts that will, for sure, become obsolete.

Welcome to the hobby. This forum is the single deepest and broadest and most friendly repository of pedal building knowledge I’ve found.

One other piece of friendly advice: build some kits. If you’re new and finding the hobby so frustrating that you lash out a bunch of fellow builders, then you may benefit from more structured builds where you don’t need to consult the community.

 

[Erik S]

At the risk of being misinterpreted, and/or getting off on the wrong foot as a forum newbie...

Okay, I'll concede that comprehensive documentation has value. I have a couple Madbean projects in the works, and I'm sure particularly for a project with stacked boards and a lot of components with size restrictions, those wonderful many page documents will serve me well.

The only part I take issue with is that anyone here is gatekeeping information in some way. Any time a specific build question is posted here, there is a flood of folks tripping over each other to help. If you need clarification on something in a build doc, I'd recommend posting a question. New builders with basic questions especially tend to get a lot of support and encouragement.

I built my first pedal six months ago. I figure that puts me somewhere in between noob and old-hand. I've built some pedals now, but I also remember pretty clearly what the first ones were like. My first two builds were PPCB boards bought as kits from Stomp box parts, so I didn't have to source components from Robert's build doc on my first go. I probably would have found that intimidating too.

The build docs are not perfect for a first time builder, but I think they're pretty good once you get through a couple builds and get in the groove. Hopefully you get there and agree.

 

[Laundryroom David]

The only part I take issue with is that anyone here is gatekeeping information in some way. Any time a specific build question is posted here, there is a flood of folks tripping over each other to help. If you need clarification on something in a build doc, I'd recommend posting a question. New builders with basic questions especially tend to get a lot of support and encouragement.

 

[ThePanda]

At the risk of being misinterpreted, and/or getting off on the wrong foot as a forum newbie...

You're good

As a pedal building noob, I have to provide a contrast to some of the sentiments above. The fact PedalPCB offers so much is amazing, but I have to honest: the terse documentation is a speedbump to entry for people who are just starting out like me. The amount of assumed prior knowledge in PedalPCB docs can be frustrating.

I get that. I agree that you may need to start with a full kit as a primer.

I would love to have at least recommendations on what kinds of caps, diodes, resistors to use in what spots (film? ceramic? etc). I realize that's often open to tinkering for different results, but having part callouts for a "default" benchmark build would really help A LOT. Not just in building, but in discussion as well.

Have you tried building a pcb from here? It isn't that crazy. Sourcing parts and learning is a part of it.

To Roberts credit, whenever there is a lack of docs he has a BOM/drill template available, and when that BOM needs something specific he documents it there.

...
BUT, with all due respect, folks here actually praising and encouraging that kind of lack of info as a general practice sets a really bad precedent.
You may personally be advanced, and that's cool for you, but saying stuff like "it's everything you need and nothing you don't" (YIKES, is that untrue), or "I like being treated like I know what I'm doing" (pulling the ladder up behind you in over an ego thing that ultimately exists in your head instead of the documentation), or "I prefer less because I like to print everything out" (treating major value for many others as disposable compared to a convenience to a quirky practice that may be unique to you) is corrosive in the bigger picture.

Those comments are just opinions from people who build and are meant as encouraging. If you are reading those comments like that you may need to reread the context.

A lot of these ideas in practice manifest as unintentional gatekeeping. Catering to the egos and non-standard quirks of old hands at the cost of making it harder than it needs to be for new blood to enter.

No one is gatekeeping, intentional or otherwise. It is just how it is currently. Robert makes the docs when he can. I don't think any of us know his private situation so we can't comment on it. We only trust based on his previous work/docs/boards.

Again, I suggest a primer project or download the free documentation other sites to supplement your knowledge.

For the record, I am a beginner pedal noob as well. Only other guitar electronics I built was my 1W Champ 2 years ago.

 

[cdwillis]

If you look at the parts list in the build document then search that part on Tayda or StompboxParts you'll get what you need. Part of learning how to build is realizing that there isn't some magic pixie dust part that's going to give you some kind of special tone. Electronics is a science, not magic. Just don't order some 250v cap instead of 25v lol.

If you need more handholding you can get complete kits from General Guitar Gadgets, Aion FX, or Build Your Own Clone. Once you build a pedal or two I think you'll reconsider your original perspective in a different light.

In the meantime if you have any questions or problems just post here you'll have a bunch of people helping in no time.

 

[LetsPaul]

You are perfectly entitled to your opinions and to heed the red flags you perceive. Or you can read on.

A bit of friendly advice: you are overthinking pedal building. The diode types are listed in the build docs and printed on the boards. The cap types aren’t really critical as long as you know + and - with a round outline on the board = aluminum electrolytic. I often sub ceramic for film and vice versa with no ill effect. Resistors - just use 1% metal film through-hole resistors.

Also understand that ANY build documentation is a suggestion. Parts go out of production all the time. You need to learn where to find the information you need in order to find appropriate substitutes for parts that will, for sure, become obsolete.

Welcome to the hobby. This forum is the single deepest and broadest and most friendly repository of pedal building knowledge I’ve found.

One other piece of friendly advice: build some kits. If you’re new and finding the hobby so frustrating that you lash out a bunch of fellow builders, then you may benefit from more structured builds where you don’t need to consult the community.

I'm not lashing out. I'm just trying to provide a counterpoint. I tried to clarify up front that I wasn't trying to attack, because I know from experience that sometimes it doesn't matter: the mere fact that one is disagreeing is enough to get people riled up into reading the disagreeing party as riled up. Case in point.

In regards to many documentrarion being a suggestion: I know. That's literally why I 'm saying suggested component types are helpful to newbies who don't yet know what you know. There's a lot of discussion over component types, and a lot of it is too much for a newbie to digest all at once. The documentation is the perfect first-in-line-place for such, and offloading those suggestions elsewhere only "helps" experts who already know what they want (and it doesn't really help them, it just makes reading the docs very slightly more streamlined).

Like I say: it helps the learning process move more efficiently. This isn't Dark Souls: there's no benefit to actively making newbies take a longer road than is neccisary.

Newbies have to start somewhere. Even with the risk of components going out of production, having a baseline reference to start with is enormously more helpful than just being thrown to the winds. Nor am I talking about not needing to consult the community. I'm saying having a "default" build actually helps newbies get their fingernails into the concepts, both internally, and in their ability to frame their questions to the community. Just being able to ask "what is the equivalent of specific part X, and why does it matter" is already a MUCH more educational question for a newbie to ask than a completely open-ended "what should I use?".

In fact, asking "what's a good substitute for this OOP part and why?" is WAY more educational than a kit that provides all needed parts. The kit is truly paint-by-numbers, intrinsically teaching nothing other than soldering practice.

 

[LetsPaul]

The only part I take issue with is that anyone here is gatekeeping information in some way. Any time a specific build question is posted here, there is a flood of folks tripping over each other to help. If you need clarification on something in a build doc, I'd recommend posting a question. New builders with basic questions especially tend to get a lot of support and encouragement.

Yeah, that's why I say "unintentional" gatekeeping. As you say, people here are all kinds of helpful and supportive when asked. I don't think anyone here actually wants to gatekeep, and I get why the intimation would bristle.

I'm saying that these lines of thinking about documentation can easily add up to a kind of functional emergent gatekeeping regardless of, or even contrary to, deliberate intent. It's like a "tragedy of the commons" thing.

 

[ThePanda]

I'm not lashing out. I'm just trying to provide a counterpoint. I tried to clarify up front that I wasn't trying to attack, because I know from experience that sometimes it doesn't matter: the mere fact that one is disagreeing is enough to get people riled up into reading the disagreeing party as riled up. Case in point.

I think you need to reread it as advice/opinion versus understanding it as a total disagreement.

Like I say: it helps the learning process move more efficiently. This isn't Dark Souls: there's no benefit to actively making newbies take a longer road than is neccisary.

Bro, any new hobby like this needs a lot of reading/research from multiple sources. Did you ever watch youtube videos on how to speed run that black knight and get the spear at the beginning? Same concept.

Newbies have to start somewhere. Even with the risk of components going out of production, having a baseline reference to start with is enormously more helpful than just being thrown to the winds. Nor am I talking about not needing to consult the community. I'm saying having a "default" build actually helps newbies get their fingernails into the concepts, both internally, and in their ability to frame their questions to the community. Just being able to ask "what is the equivalent of specific part X, and why does it matter" is already a MUCH more educational question for a newbie to ask than a completely open-ended "what should I use?".

In fact, asking "what's a good substitute for this OOP part and why?" is WAY more educational than a kit that provides all needed parts. The kit is truly paint-by-numbers, intrinsically teaching nothing other than soldering practice.

In the text file BOMs that Robert provides he has those idiosyncrasies listed when they apply, and the boards have shapes of the components.

 

[Erik S]

Yeah, that's why I say "unintentional" gatekeeping. As you say, people here are all kinds of helpful and supportive when asked. I don't think anyone here actually wants to gatekeep, and I get why the intimation would bristle.

I'm saying that these lines of thinking about documentation can easily add up to a kind of functional emergent gatekeeping regardless of, or even contrary to, deliberate intent. It's like a "tragedy of the commons" thing.

Is there something specific you've been unable to figure out from a build doc? Do you have an actual problem you're trying to solve?

If you have a question about something, you probably could have had the answer by now instead of whatever is happening here.

 

[ThePanda]

Yeah, that's why I say "unintentional" gatekeeping. As you say, people here are all kinds of helpful and supportive when asked. I don't think anyone here actually wants to gatekeep, and I get why the intimation would bristle.

I'm saying that these lines of thinking about documentation can easily add up to a kind of functional emergent gatekeeping regardless of, or even contrary to, deliberate intent. It's like a "tragedy of the commons" thing.

By your definition, anything or any community is "unintentionally" gatekeeping by just existing with prior knowledge.

Just by being "helpful and supportive" when asked is definitely why there is no gatekeeping.

I am baffled by your view.

 

[zgrav]

I don't know that this site ever intended to be a starting point for new builders and your comments would be on point if that were one of the goals here. But if that is not a goal, then suggestions about useful things to add to the build documents probably don't get a higher priority than completing the "missing" build documents for projects where PCBs are already being sold. It does not mean that new builders are not welcome, nor is anyone trying to make it harder for them by not including that information.

It is understandable that new builders are drawn to the great selection of boards here and want to give it a try. Some folks only want to build a pedal as a cheaper alternative to buying a unicorn pedal, but many times those projects are difficult builds that can be expensive to source. Not surprisingly, some of those people usually discover this is a deeper dive than they might have hoped for and probably would benefit from more detailed instructions.

I agree with the suggestions that a new builder should consider a few kit builds and see if this is a hobby worth sticking with. Kits teach technique and assembly skills -- things that are usually at issue when something does not work on a build. The real learning about what is happening in a circuit comes with troubleshooting problems in a build, and that is where the forums here shine.

There are some great "getting started" tips in the forum and searching topics will often bring up troubleshooting discussions that can be helpful. And lots of people are interested in lending a hand if someone posts questions and clear pictures of boards where there is a problem.

 

[LetsPaul]

I think you need to reread it as advice/opinion versus understanding it as a total disagreement.

Bro, any new hobby like this needs a lot of reading/research from multiple sources. Did you ever watch youtube videos on how to speed run that black knight and get the spear at the beginning? Same concept.

In the text file BOMs that Robert provides he has those idiosyncrasies listed when they apply, and the boards have shapes of the components.

I've been reading and watching videos for the past 2 months. You're doing that thing people do when they argue where they leapfrog to the most extreme possible interpretation of the other's position.

Literally all I'm saying is that better documentation helps people better. And all I'm defining as "better" here is "slightly clarified components". I'm not advocation for anything huge or drastic, It just seems like I stepped on folks toes and now everyone feels like they have to armour up.

Probably I could have phrased things better. If that's the case: my bad. But my point remains very simple: even a little more information helps a lot more people a lot more efficaintly than the absolute minimum information does.

Also there is no text file BOM on the catalog pages for the PCBs that calls out the stuff I'm suggesting/advocating. There are PDFs with component lists numbered to where they go on the board, but they do not include the info I'm suggesting/advocating. If these are stored somewhere other than the catalog pages, I welcome being shown where (though I would say that maybe they should be on the catalog pages).

 

[BuddytheReow]

Alright. I'll throw my hat in the ring here. SOme of it is repeating others. From what I've read there aren't any shots fired at anyone

First, I 10000000% agree that if you really don't know what you're doing, then build docs aren't going to be super helpful at least from PPCB. I think Madbean does a bit better job in terms of hand holding through the process. The flip side is that there are many time more boards available from PPCB than Madbean, Aion, etc. so it makes sense that the build docs are a bit more "bare bones" than other vendors.

a new builder should consider a few kit builds and see if this is a hobby worth sticking with. Kits teach technique and assembly skills -- things that are usually at issue when something does not work on a build. The real learning about what is happening in a circuit comes with troubleshooting problems in a build, and that is where the forums here shine.

100% agree with this. If you don't really know what you're doing, start with a kit to learn the process of building. Then you can take baby steps into a much larger world.

Secondly, forums (especially this one) have all the information and/or people you need to have successful builds and to learn more about how circuits work. The problem with forums is that there is no one single depository of such information in an easy to find way. Some people, myself included, have tried to give back to the community here by sharing a lot of knowledge based on experience and you'll have to dig around to find it. There are some areas here which are more focused, such as Chuck's Boneyard, The Test Kitchen, or the Resources section. Not trying to toot my own horn, but my goal in doing all those writeups was to create a more focused depository of information for anyone who just wanted to learn without taking massive amounts of time wandering around here or the interwebs.

IMO, there should be a Newbie forum here and many various threads should be included: general workflow tips, circuit designs, what parts to have in your general inventory, etc. Is this considered too much hand holding? Probably, but even YOU had to start somewhere, right?

 

[LetsPaul]

By your definition, anything or any community is "unintentionally" gatekeeping by just existing with prior knowledge.

Just by being "helpful and supportive" when asked is definitely why there is no gatekeeping.

I am baffled by your view.

I... have no idea how you would get that conclusion from my statements logically? I literally cannot make sense of what you're asserting about what I said.

 

[ThePanda]

I've been reading and watching videos for the past 2 months. You're doing that thing people do when they argue where they leapfrog to the most extreme possible interpretation of the other's position.

You prolly should have phrased that better then. My comment only followed yours. Using a Dark Souls reference is exactly leapfrogging to an extreme.

Literally all I'm saying is that better documentation helps people better. And all I'm defining as "better" here is "slightly clarified components". I'm not advocation for anything huge or drastic, It just seems like I stepped on folks toes and now everyone feels like they have to armour up.

I think we have moot points then. When you use phrases like gatekeeping you are, maybe "unintentionally", attacking,

If you said better documentation makes people better, then no one would really "armor" up. They would agree.

Probably I could have phrased things better. If that's the case: my bad. But my point remains very simple: even a little more information helps a lot more people a lot more efficaintly than the absolute minimum information does.

Also there is no text file BOM on the catalog pages for the PCBs that calls out the stuff I'm suggesting/advocating. There are PDFs with component lists numbered to where they go on the board, but they do not include the info I'm suggesting/advocating. If these are stored somewhere other than the catalog pages, I welcome being shown where (though I would say that maybe they should be on the catalog pages).

Yeah man, phrasing is important especially on the internet,

The BOM example I am referencing is in Skeptical Buffer. He puts tant on one of the components. It is very barebones. I agree this could not be newbie friendly. However, a counterpoint is lots of pages of documentation fluff isn't either.

These are found by searching the forum. I suppose from a consumer perspective this could be better as well.

 

[zgrav]

I've been reading and watching videos for the past 2 months. You're doing that thing people do when they argue where they leapfrog to the most extreme possible interpretation of the other's position.

Literally all I'm saying is that better documentation helps people better. And all I'm defining as "better" here is "slightly clarified components". I'm not advocation for anything huge or drastic, It just seems like I stepped on folks toes and now everyone feels like they have to armour up.

Probably I could have phrased things better. If that's the case: my bad. But my point remains very simple: even a little more information helps a lot more people a lot more efficaintly than the absolute minimum information does.

Also there is no text file BOM on the catalog pages for the PCBs that calls out the stuff I'm suggesting/advocating. There are PDFs with component lists numbered to where they go on the board, but they do not include the info I'm suggesting/advocating. If these are stored somewhere other than the catalog pages, I welcome being shown where (though I would say that maybe they should be on the catalog pages).

I think you are doing a good job presenting your points without being critical. I think it comes down to an implication that the site operator should want to allocate more thought and time into providing more useful information in the build documents, while others understand that the site prioritizes putting out new boards with minimal documentation, sometimes with the build documents lagging for some time after the boards are offered. There are resources in the forums along with people willing to help.

 

[ThePanda]

I... have no idea how you would get that conclusion from my statements logically? I literally cannot make sense of what you're asserting about what I said.

I'll stop here.
Maybe I didn't phrase it well.

@LetsPaul What boards you thinking of building?

 

[Laundryroom David]

I've been reading and watching videos for the past 2 months. You're doing that thing people do when they argue where they leapfrog to the most extreme possible interpretation of the other's position.

Literally all I'm saying is that better documentation helps people better. And all I'm defining as "better" here is "slightly clarified components". I'm not advocation for anything huge or drastic, It just seems like I stepped on folks toes and now everyone feels like they have to armour up.

Probably I could have phrased things better. If that's the case: my bad. But my point remains very simple: even a little more information helps a lot more people a lot more efficaintly than the absolute minimum information does.

Also there is no text file BOM on the catalog pages for the PCBs that calls out the stuff I'm suggesting/advocating. There are PDFs with component lists numbered to where they go on the board, but they do not include the info I'm suggesting/advocating. If these are stored somewhere other than the catalog pages, I welcome being shown where (though I would say that maybe they should be on the catalog pages).

No toes were harmed in the making of this thread and nobody’s arming for battle. You have thoughts about what should be and I have provided concrete information about what is.

Good luck. Ask for help if you need it.

Edit to clarify: I genuinely mean good luck. No snark.

 

[Guardians of the analog]

everyone here was new at some point. There are a number of forums, vendors and suppliers that cater to this very small and niche market of hobby pedal builders. Many, not all, have links or FAQs to the knowledge you so desperately seek. Searching within this forum and google will give you all the answers you seek. I admire the quest for information, but the reality of diy pedal building, as with most hobbies, is that you will ultimately have to do your own research and learn through trial and error like all of us here, even the most seasoned builders. I don't know that pleading your case in a somewhat argumentative fashion on a public forum is the best way to have someone give it to you now, and why here of all places? Have you tried this on DIYSB??? It really sounds like you want everything handed to you and you don't want to be a part of the community, at least that's how it comes off.