andare
Well-known member
Working as a compressor? Definitely a thankless job.
Commercial Build vs DIY Build
- Thread starter CheapSuitG
- Start date
zeropluszero
Well-known member
A warranty?
zeropluszero
Well-known member
Not that I wouldn't repair something busted, but I think it's less expected from diy than commercial
Alan W
Well-known member
In an odd way though, I remember the first few “small company” (before “boutique” was a thing) (HBE, Red Witch, Dr. Scientist, etc.) pedals that I bought, and thinking there was something nice about the fact that they came in plain cardboard boxes, with obviously laser printed instruction sheets. But, times have changed, and I do agree with you!
falco_femoralis
Well-known member
To me, "commercial" implies that there is qty of the pedal available for mass consumption. In this vein, DIY becomes commercial when a pedal is produced en masse and is available for sale at a venue capable of reaching an audience sizeable enough to consume such quantity.
If I make two of some pedal and stick them both on reverb, it's DIY. If I make 100 and sell through them in some sort of measurable consistency, it's commercial
If I make two of some pedal and stick them both on reverb, it's DIY. If I make 100 and sell through them in some sort of measurable consistency, it's commercial
CheapSuitG
The TubeSchemer
Some great points here.
Is a DIY as “good” as a commercial build?
Good being subjective.
There are outliers but DIY vs a Boss or EQD for instance.
Is a DIY as “good” as a commercial build?
Good being subjective.
There are outliers but DIY vs a Boss or EQD for instance.
Robert
Reverse Engineer
Very much so.
If I shoved a PCB into an enclosure mounted by nothing more than a tangled nest of offboard wiring, and the only thing preventing it from shorting against the enclosure lid is a little sheet of plastic I tossed inside at the last minute just before slapping the lid on and tightening down the screws.... you would probably call that "less than ideal".
Yet when Boss does it....
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Paradox916
Well-known member
Hats off to anyone who decided to try and make that leap from “DIY” to “commercial” it only took selling a few pedals before I realized that idea sucked the fun out of the hobby for me. I can definitely see how logistics can start eating up more and more time, I already don’t play guitar as much as I use too (or would like too) and it’s the first thing to get side lined in the name of priorities these days. “Ain’t nobody got time for that.”
CR0SSBL4DE
Active member
Commercial != industrial
Lots of DIYers sell their stuff. Call it boutique and ask chatGPT for fancy marketing words xD
Just try to use good quality components (less failing), and develop a process good enough so that you don't have to put a lot of hours per pedal and avoid having to solder-desolder-solder-etc.
Results using PedalPCB designs are very professional. Have you seen gut pics of older JHS pedals?
Lots of DIYers sell their stuff. Call it boutique and ask chatGPT for fancy marketing words xD
Just try to use good quality components (less failing), and develop a process good enough so that you don't have to put a lot of hours per pedal and avoid having to solder-desolder-solder-etc.
Results using PedalPCB designs are very professional. Have you seen gut pics of older JHS pedals?
blackhatboojum
Well-known member
falco_femoralis
Well-known member
^ Old JHS is where I learned about using hot glue inside pedals. Look up a gut pic of their old Mr Magic - it's just perf board and off board wiring.
Also, "commercial" denotes that a product should be available in perpetuity and should be available for sale with the intent of turning a profit. If you sell a limited quantity of one type pedal, and then stop, you haven't really done that. You could make a brand that sells limited quantity releases of different types of pedals, and then your brand would be a commercial entity, and as an extension, so would your pedals. Part of the meaning of "commercial" includes brand recognition and existence in the zeitgeist.
What constitutes a "good" pedal is purely subjective. If you don't like the sound of a pedal that happens to be made with quality components, but you do like another pedal made with maybe mid tier resistors and capacitors, and no mojo parts, but has a more pleasing sound, then the quality/price/country of manufacture of the parts doesn't matter. Many people see "Made in USA" and equate that with quality and are going to be biased regardless of what the pedal sounds like.
Commercially available =/= quality, almost by definition of a free market
Also, "commercial" denotes that a product should be available in perpetuity and should be available for sale with the intent of turning a profit. If you sell a limited quantity of one type pedal, and then stop, you haven't really done that. You could make a brand that sells limited quantity releases of different types of pedals, and then your brand would be a commercial entity, and as an extension, so would your pedals. Part of the meaning of "commercial" includes brand recognition and existence in the zeitgeist.
What constitutes a "good" pedal is purely subjective. If you don't like the sound of a pedal that happens to be made with quality components, but you do like another pedal made with maybe mid tier resistors and capacitors, and no mojo parts, but has a more pleasing sound, then the quality/price/country of manufacture of the parts doesn't matter. Many people see "Made in USA" and equate that with quality and are going to be biased regardless of what the pedal sounds like.
Commercially available =/= quality, almost by definition of a free market
vigilante398
Authorized Vendor
Holy shit that's a lot of glue.
CheapSuitG
The TubeSchemer
So what I am gathering, professional/commercial is solder side up, DIY is components side up?
eh là bas ma
Well-known member
In my opinion, it's hard to compare the industry and diy builders.
We need comparison criteria.
The industry like Boss or others have factories available for them, with expensive devices and machines to help them reach an optimal ratio between expenses and quality. Which can be both advantageous and an inconvenience. They can do reliable builds on a large scale, but they can't go too far with quality and craftmanship, for competitive issues. Industry prioritizes money benefits, which lead them to all kinds of compromises.
The level of a diy builder varies, depending on the level of interest for the project, the diy builder's experience, and the craftmanship knowledge.
Someone with 40 years experience, with some craftmanship background or skills, will be completely different than someone like me, a music player who just wanted to save money and try many circuits.
I mean, i mostly build kits. Fortunately, there are people like Klaus at musikding, who is able to source all the parts carefully and accurately and send them to me.
On forums like this one, i realized some builders spend countless hours sourcing parts, and it can become a great skill, increasing the build quality, depending on their level of electronic knowledge, experience in sourcing parts, and their budget.
Some diy builders are using bare aluminium enclosures and use a marker to write the controls, maybe a sticker to decorate the build, or a piece of paper slipped under the controls screws.
Other builders are real artists, working on the enclosure in their own singular way.
Using etching with great skills, or woodcraft, etc.
All these hours spent only on the enclosure will most certainly increase tremendously the overall build's quality.
I also built a few perfboard and veroboard projects, and i could see how different it is when we don't have a pcb. For me, that's where it becomes truely interesting in terms of craftmanship. All sorts of little details start to matter.
I can spend 6 hours on a kit, and 3 days or 3 weeks on a vero project if im trying to do everything right, the way some very experienced builders taught me to do things.
As a conclusion i'd say that some diy builds are ordinary, even mediocre, the builder didn't intend to make a piece of art, just a quick job to test some circuit, and move on.
On the other hand, some diy builds are remarquable, priceless, made with artistical intents, thanks to amazing craftmanship skills that can't be found in the industry.
Some diy builders are interested in playing guitar, they build the project as fast as they can, other builders are more interested in the building process and they'll focus on doing the best they can.
We need comparison criteria.
The industry like Boss or others have factories available for them, with expensive devices and machines to help them reach an optimal ratio between expenses and quality. Which can be both advantageous and an inconvenience. They can do reliable builds on a large scale, but they can't go too far with quality and craftmanship, for competitive issues. Industry prioritizes money benefits, which lead them to all kinds of compromises.
The level of a diy builder varies, depending on the level of interest for the project, the diy builder's experience, and the craftmanship knowledge.
Someone with 40 years experience, with some craftmanship background or skills, will be completely different than someone like me, a music player who just wanted to save money and try many circuits.
I mean, i mostly build kits. Fortunately, there are people like Klaus at musikding, who is able to source all the parts carefully and accurately and send them to me.
On forums like this one, i realized some builders spend countless hours sourcing parts, and it can become a great skill, increasing the build quality, depending on their level of electronic knowledge, experience in sourcing parts, and their budget.
Some diy builders are using bare aluminium enclosures and use a marker to write the controls, maybe a sticker to decorate the build, or a piece of paper slipped under the controls screws.
Other builders are real artists, working on the enclosure in their own singular way.
Using etching with great skills, or woodcraft, etc.
All these hours spent only on the enclosure will most certainly increase tremendously the overall build's quality.
I also built a few perfboard and veroboard projects, and i could see how different it is when we don't have a pcb. For me, that's where it becomes truely interesting in terms of craftmanship. All sorts of little details start to matter.
I can spend 6 hours on a kit, and 3 days or 3 weeks on a vero project if im trying to do everything right, the way some very experienced builders taught me to do things.
As a conclusion i'd say that some diy builds are ordinary, even mediocre, the builder didn't intend to make a piece of art, just a quick job to test some circuit, and move on.
On the other hand, some diy builds are remarquable, priceless, made with artistical intents, thanks to amazing craftmanship skills that can't be found in the industry.
Some diy builders are interested in playing guitar, they build the project as fast as they can, other builders are more interested in the building process and they'll focus on doing the best they can.
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pricklyrobot
Well-known member
The average pedal buyer (i.e. people not on this forum) isn’t ever looking at pedal guts to assess quality.
They’re saying to themselves:
“Well, I could buy from Boss, who have sold millions of pedals over 40+ years, and don’t seem to be on the brink of bankruptcy due to constantly returns of defective merchandise”
-or-
“I could buy from some rando on Etsy who likes to boast about only using solid wire bent at precise right angles, whatever that means…”
They’re saying to themselves:
“Well, I could buy from Boss, who have sold millions of pedals over 40+ years, and don’t seem to be on the brink of bankruptcy due to constantly returns of defective merchandise”
-or-
“I could buy from some rando on Etsy who likes to boast about only using solid wire bent at precise right angles, whatever that means…”
I work in marketing, and as a graphic designer have the ability to make really really pretty things. I’ve also fallen into product design things before and the last build of a small batch of things I sold were beautiful wee things that looked amazing and I was designing in quicker assembly process timing and automating some things - (I still sold them at a price that ignored any design time and paid me way way below minimum wage for assembly - so I’ll not do that again…)
So yes, marketing is great- and can get you a long way - what I think the difference is though is electrical engineering chops - I can bodge together things, I can work out what to fiddle with on a breadboard to ‘tune’ a circuit (though knowing what to aim for would be marketing again) - but a lot of the time I don’t intimately know what I’m doing… other people do - and for me that’s the difference.
Some things you just look at and go “yeah I just need to pay you for your work so I can enjoy this thing”.
Mind you that doesn’t answer the original question as there’s some DIY folk on here and elsewhere who know their stuff more than most.
But yeah, there’s also a correlation of brilliant engineers seeming to have awful understanding of design and brand and marketing …
blackhatboojum
Well-known member
I didn’t actually think about that but… yes
.
Feral Feline
Well-known member
There are some excellent examples of Enginurding chops out there in the Pedal Industry, to be sure...
And yet still plenty of successful Pedal Companies without engineers at the helm — for example Eerth Quicker Devised's Jammy-Still-Whelp "designs" surekuts that are then "corrected" in the Boneyard by CBD.
Erik S
Well-known member
If Stillman or Wampler or Scott or Ackerman had engineering degrees and/ or student loans, their wives probably would have made them quit screwing with pedals out in the shed and go get real jobs.
There are some excellent examples of Enginurding chops out there in the Pedal Industry, to be sure...
And yet still plenty of successful Pedal Companies without engineers at the helm — for example Eerth Quicker Devised's Jammy-Still-Whelp "designs" surekuts that are then "corrected" in the Boneyard by CBD.
GAStan
Active member
For me its comparing apples to oranges.
In my mind it should be DIYFY, Do It Yourself For Yourself. When I build something, be it a pedal, amp, or anything else I'm building it because I get a joy from the process of building. Saving $$$ isn't a consideration. At nearly 60 years old my time, to me, is simply too valuable to waste on something I don't enjoy. I never build with the intention of selling. Rather I build it for myself or someone in particular.
For the record I fall under the category of one who sources the parts and spends a considerable amount of time on the artwork. I take my time assembling the circuit board, verifying each component's value prior to soldering it in. My failure rate so far (knock on wood) is zero on initial power-up. If I were to sell my one-off pedals, even at top boutique prices, I'd be making only a few dollars an hour, far below the poverty level.
I'd like to point out that while DIY is often handmade, handmade is not necessarily DIY.
In my mind it should be DIYFY, Do It Yourself For Yourself. When I build something, be it a pedal, amp, or anything else I'm building it because I get a joy from the process of building. Saving $$$ isn't a consideration. At nearly 60 years old my time, to me, is simply too valuable to waste on something I don't enjoy. I never build with the intention of selling. Rather I build it for myself or someone in particular.
For the record I fall under the category of one who sources the parts and spends a considerable amount of time on the artwork. I take my time assembling the circuit board, verifying each component's value prior to soldering it in. My failure rate so far (knock on wood) is zero on initial power-up. If I were to sell my one-off pedals, even at top boutique prices, I'd be making only a few dollars an hour, far below the poverty level.
I'd like to point out that while DIY is often handmade, handmade is not necessarily DIY.