Where and why do people buy Chibsons?

[Sturdag Lagernathy]

I've read and kept up with this thread, and not posted till now because I always feel like I can't put down in words exactly how I'm feeling, without sounding like an idiot.
I just don't like it. Cant exactly put my finger on why, maybe it's the fact you can get a good guitar for cheap without the name. It only says "Gibson" to lie about what it is. There is no positive reason to do such a thing. It doesn't make anything better, the point is only to decieve. I made an oath many years ago that I would endeavor to only put positivity into this world, and I know it's a small thing, but I just find this reprehensible.

I'm also very surprised that I seem to be in the minority, so remember: You get out of this world the grand sum of what you put in, positive or negative.

 

[giovanni]

"To frame it in a way that hopefully relates it to those of you in the western first world. It’s no different than the illegal drug trade that is ran by violent cartels. In fact, it’s probably the same cartels that are involved with counterfeit guitars, fake Rolex watches, human trafficking, and organ harvesting."

That feels like a bit of a stretch. The "article" is some guy's blog. He is not a journalist, he does not cite any sources, he has nothing to back up these claims.

I don't have anything that disputes what this guy is claiming, but I will submit this article and also go ahead and drop my favorite line from it: "When two parties are in a discussion and one makes a claim that the other disputes, the one who makes the claim typically has a burden of proof to justify or substantiate that claim". This dude's blog is making a boatload of terrible claims with absolutely no evidence.

This is totally fair. The burden of proof is on the claimant. However, there is tons of evidence that counterfeits in other industries (most notably fashion) are the direct result of slavery (I found dozens of articles and antislavery organizations on the topic). I haven’t found more evidence for guitars in particular, but I suspect the market is too small for journalists to bother. Unless I were able to verify the source (like you did when you vetted the factory your counterfeit came from), I would still be very wary of purchasing a counterfeit guitar (or any other product).

 

[giovanni]

Like Abraham Lincoln said "You can't trust everything you read on the internet"

I saw this one article about how all fish have nano-plastics in them. After researching the researcher I found the article was based on the work of an anti-plastic activist who collected samples of water from mud puddles surrounding a facility that was shut down for dumping hazardous plastic production waste.

He then proceeded to extrapolate the results of his findings to all of the water on the planet and came to the conclusions without testing a single fish.

This was several years ago, and I just saw it resurface in another article that had now extrapolated those results to all plants and animals on the planet.

Talk about an eye roll....

I think the story about the guy fishing in a puddle may have been the fake. Microplastics in animal life and also many other places is a well documented problem.

 

[giovanni]

Also sorry for being a party pooper on this thread. I’ll shut up now!

 

[KR Sound]

no way, it’s cool. Makes for a good conversation as long as it’s things don’t turn hostile or attacking. You can’t deny there’s a huge counterfeit industry all over the globe in fashion, music, electronics, etc and the reasoning and history behind it is and has been a huge area of debates for a long time.

I used to build custom watches until my eyes couldn’t see the tiny screws and gears as well, and there’s a huge market for fake luxury watches. It’s the same process as these guitars. Contact the factory rep in China, they take your $400 and send you pics during the process, and in the end you get a 95% accurate dupe of a $5-10,000 watch made from the same materials. Except the custom in-house movements which is the big tell that proves it’s a fake.

 

[cdwillis]

I'm talking out of my ass here, but I think it's a lot easier to counterfeit a Vera Wang dress, Calvin Klein shirt, or whatever garment because it doesn't require a bunch of specialized equipment or highly trained craftspeople like creating a musical instrument. These people can definitely run a sweatshop full of slaves and crank out knockoff fashion products. I just don't think that is the case with guitars and that article has no evidence of that happening, just a hunch that they've further speculated on. "Trust me bro." I just can't believe anyone could read that as it was written and take it seriously.

 

[RetiredUnit1]

I think the story about the guy fishing in a puddle may have been the fake. Microplastics in animal life and also many other places is a well documented problem.

And yet in the article they say there's too little research. This is a story designed to generate more revenue for "scientists" like the one I mentioned who live on grant money.

 

[giovanni]

And yet in the article they say there's too little research. This is a story designed to generate more revenue for "scientists" like the one I mentioned who live on grant money.

Evidence and research are not the same thing. We have plenty of evidence to justify a lot more research.

 

[Aentons]

I'm talking out of my ass here, but I think it's a lot easier to counterfeit a Vera Wang dress, Calvin Klein shirt, or whatever garment because it doesn't require a bunch of specialized equipment or highly trained craftspeople like creating a musical instrument. These people can definitely run a sweatshop full of slaves and crank out knockoff fashion products. I just don't think that is the case with guitars and that article has no evidence of that happening, just a hunch that they've further speculated on. "Trust me bro." I just can't believe anyone could read that as it was written and take it seriously.

To be fair, it's not just fashion stuff, it's almost any luxury item. Nike shoes are the most counterfeited item and I would think there are some specialized tools involved.

I think you may give to much credit to the counterfeiters that produce crappy guitar like objects as to what level of skill is required. What you see in the pictures is usually not what you get. Keep in mind, it is not a one size fits all prob that can be generalized and getting people to understand that is part of the problem.

 

[Fama]

And yet in the article they say there's too little research. This is a story designed to generate more revenue for "scientists" like the one I mentioned who live on grant money.

Let's be accurate now.

still too little research to determine if consuming or inhaling microplastics posed a risk to human health

We know there's microplastics everywhere - what we don't know is what risk they pose to human health. They obviously don't kill you straight away since they're so ubiquitous, and I'd say most people wouldn't be very comfortable betting that they are completely harmless. But how harmful are they, and if the situation keeps getting worse, will we start seeing some actual big effects? That is something we don't know yet.

Cancer seems to be getting more common in general, and for example sperm quality has been pretty steadily declining too. We don't quite know why, and the answer is probably that there are a lot of different reasons that all contribute a little, but it's also quite possible that microplastics could have a hand in there. Or maybe not - they could be completely harmless. That's where we need research.

Frankly, the idea that any large swath of science is just a full blown conspiracy by all the researchers in that area of expertise is nothing more than a conspiracy theory. If you try googling for "there are no microplastics", at least I couldn't find anything about that - I'm sure there would be some conspiracy theories if I would dig deep enough. But it's not really something that is a mystery. The only question is, are they harmful or not.

(there is absolutely science fraud where unscrupulous companies or foundations buy sham research, and there are also issues with null results not getting published which can warp some fields and so on, but those are separate issues and not a big conspiracy)

 

[GizzWizzKing]

You can’t deny there’s a huge counterfeit industry all over the globe in [...] music

Finally we get to the meat and potatoes. Greta Van Fleet has been counterfeiting music for a few years now and people still support them. I find this detestable. Also cover bands....

sorry.. i couldn't resist.

 

[PunchySunshine]

My buddy just told me that he went down this rabbit hole with his contacts and found out that Gibson actually was considering moving production to China. They had all of these made to see if it was plausible but wound up going a different route. So these guys are stuck with warehouses of Gibson spec'd guitars. I guess you can take alcohol and sandpaper to the "Ch" in the Chibson and get a "G" underneath too.
He compared a '59 repro to an actual '59 and it's dead nuts on. Even the pickups!
I don't need one but I'm sure considering ordering because at this price, shipped, they're basically paying you to take one.

 

[Giorfida]

My buddy just told me that he went down this rabbit hole with his contacts and found out that Gibson actually was considering moving production to China. They had all of these made to see if it was plausible but wound up going a different route. So these guys are stuck with warehouses of Gibson spec'd guitars. I guess you can take alcohol and sandpaper to the "Ch" in the Chibson and get a "G" underneath too.
He compared a '59 repro to an actual '59 and it's dead nuts on. Even the pickups!
I don't need one but I'm sure considering ordering because at this price, shipped, they're basically paying you to take one.

Gibson is already in China. They own the Epiphone facility.

 

[vigilante398]

My buddy just told me that he went down this rabbit hole with his contacts and found out that Gibson actually was considering moving production to China. They had all of these made to see if it was plausible but wound up going a different route. So these guys are stuck with warehouses of Gibson spec'd guitars. I guess you can take alcohol and sandpaper to the "Ch" in the Chibson and get a "G" underneath too.
He compared a '59 repro to an actual '59 and it's dead nuts on. Even the pickups!
I don't need one but I'm sure considering ordering because at this price, shipped, they're basically paying you to take one.

Got a source on that, my dude? I know Gibson bought a Chinese piano factory in like 2006 and all the forums buzzed about Gibson moving guitar manufacturing there, but I never saw anything official come out of it.

 

[Giorfida]

Got a source on that, my dude? I know Gibson bought a Chinese piano factory in like 2006 and all the forums buzzed about Gibson moving guitar manufacturing there, but I never saw anything official come out of it.

Hey! I’m not in college, and this isnt a term paper where fls need to cite sources!! so I usually defer burden of proof on the accuser- disprove me!!!

Ok all joking aside: in this forum, I turn off my obnoxious, cocky internet persona and can be myself, so I’m actually glad to help:
Last paragraph of this page, right from the horse’s mouth (so no Reddit conjecture etc).

Epiphone | For Every Stage

www.epiphone.com

Also saw it on a YouTube video not that long ago, where they were there touring it, but can’t remember if it was Trogly, Sweetwater, Tim Pierce or some other channel.

And of course, pick up any epiphone at the local music store and you’ll see the made in China sticker

Edit: isn’t last paragraph, rather last paragraph before “The Modern Age”
“demand for all things Epiphone was so high that the company opened a new factory in Qingdao in China in 2004, the first time that Epiphone had its own dedicated factory since Gibson acquired the brand in 1957.”

 

[vigilante398]

Hey! I’m not in college, and this isnt a term paper where fls need to cite sources!! so I usually defer burden of proof on the accuser- disprove me!!!

Ok all joking aside: in this forum, I turn off my obnoxious, cocky internet persona and can be myself, so I’m actually glad to help:
Last paragraph of this page, right from the horse’s mouth (so no Reddit conjecture etc).

Epiphone | For Every Stage

www.epiphone.com

Also saw it on a YouTube video not that long ago, where they were there touring it, but can’t remember if it was Trogly, Sweetwater, Tim Pierce or some other channel.

And of course, pick up any epiphone at the local music store and you’ll see the made in China sticker

Edit: isn’t last paragraph, rather last paragraph before “The Modern Age”
“demand for all things Epiphone was so high that the company opened a new factory in Qingdao in China in 2004, the first time that Epiphone had its own dedicated factory since Gibson acquired the brand in 1957.”

I was aware of the Qingdao Epiphone factory, no issue there, it's well documented. But I've never seen any evidence (not for lack of looking) regarding Gibson seriously looking into making Gibson guitars overseas, let alone a factory full of Gibson spec Chinese guitars being blown out at low prices. On the contrary Gibson has a history of actively destroying Gibson guitars that for whatever reason won't be sold.

 

[Giorfida]

I was aware of the Qingdao Epiphone factory, no issue there, it's well documented. But I've never seen any evidence (not for lack of looking) regarding Gibson seriously looking into making Gibson guitars overseas, let alone a factory full of Gibson spec Chinese guitars being blown out at low prices. On the contrary Gibson has a history of actively destroying Gibson guitars that for whatever reason won't be sold.

Ok I think I completely missed the mark here.
I was only commenting that they did own the factory in China that makes epiphone.
You are correct in that I’ve never heard any talk of actual Gibsons being made in China (not saying we won’t eventually see lower end pickups or subassemblies made there). I don’t expect they would ever do full guitars.
If anything, I see them making the Epiphone like more Gibsonlike (getting rid of the Epi flowerpot headstock for the open book etc), and making them more attractive. I could even see them doing like PRS SE line and making a “Gibson Epi” line or adding a “by Gibson” to the epi logo.
I think at least at this time, anything to cheapen the Gibson name would be the end of Gibson.

To be honest, I don’t buy the “Chibson are Gibson attempt to make guitars in China… they already have proven they can make a great guitar, it just says Epiphone on the headstock. I forgot he counterfeiting shops are everywhere in the country, and there are always some details they get wrong since they work from photos or are too labor intensive to make $$ at the price point they want (like things such as fretboard nibs etc). But if someone can prove otherwise I’ll gladly eat my words

 

[Aentons]

My buddy just told me that he went down this rabbit hole with his contacts and found out that Gibson actually was considering moving production to China. They had all of these made to see if it was plausible but wound up going a different route. So these guys are stuck with warehouses of Gibson spec'd guitars. I guess you can take alcohol and sandpaper to the "Ch" in the Chibson and get a "G" underneath too.
He compared a '59 repro to an actual '59 and it's dead nuts on. Even the pickups!
I don't need one but I'm sure considering ordering because at this price, shipped, they're basically paying you to take one.

Got a source on that, my dude? I know Gibson bought a Chinese piano factory in like 2006 and all the forums buzzed about Gibson moving guitar manufacturing there, but I never saw anything official come out of it.

I was aware of the Qingdao Epiphone factory, no issue there, it's well documented. But I've never seen any evidence (not for lack of looking) regarding Gibson seriously looking into making Gibson guitars overseas, let alone a factory full of Gibson spec Chinese guitars being blown out at low prices. On the contrary Gibson has a history of actively destroying Gibson guitars that for whatever reason won't be sold.

Right. I'm sorry but what Mr. Sunshine claims is downright laughable.

 

[Giorfida]

Right. I'm sorry but what Mr. Sunshine claims is downright laughable.

Especially since other than someone doing a special order, I’ve yet to see one advertised that said “Chibson”.. that’s a name folks in the community call all counterfeit guitars (although Rickenbackers have better nicknames- Chickenbacker and Rickenfaker)

 

[SillyOctpuss]

Right. I'm sorry but what Mr. Sunshine claims is downright laughable.

Yeah I got to agree. There's zero chance any of that happened. Gibson only just gave epiphone a less ugly headstock that's closer to the gibson one after years of people asking for it. They definitely won't be producing gibson branded guitars in China. It will definitely devalue the brand. They already own the epiphone and Orville brand names for offshore built guitars.