Good lord, why the obsession with people selling stuff. I am not the Avon lady.
Please carry on and keep calm.
Some folks have told me there were bad vibes and history on that from other entities.
Please keep in mind I am not privy to that.
Why aren't folks using better US made vintage germanium diodes?
- Thread starter hifitown
- Start date
Please carry on and keep calm.
Some folks have told me there were bad vibes and history on that from other entities.
Please keep in mind I am not privy to that.
PM your address with info and I will pack some up after leakage test.golly gosh 6 or 7? alrightwith that many i might even be able to try them in a suhr riot build i’ve just started
benny_profane
Well-known member
Can you truly not understand why folks believe that you are trying to sell these diodes?
Thanks for those open minded cats out there who wanted to try some. I think I better cut off samples now .. as postage does cost $ and I am not made of money..
If they don't work out, I can post a video of a sledge hammer coming down on the box.. if that makes everyone feel better.
If they don't work out, I can post a video of a sledge hammer coming down on the box.. if that makes everyone feel better.
ICTRock
Well-known member
holy shit. this fucking guy. "hiding behind the security of what works" ... you, sir, are a fucking douchebag and you have my open invitation to kick rocks and take your grossly overpriced warez with you.
I understand that fear, yes. No I get that part of it. But not the "hate of the unknown" or even "hate of the known, if it costs $5" ...
If I was selling for the sake of sales, I really could just lie about these devices to buyers , rather than get lambasted on here for it.
that's not how I want to roll.
If you don't think people like different devices.. please google WE 300b vs 2a3 (even though a 2A3 does all the same jobs, just as good albeit at different operation points). And before @PedalBuilder or someone says that's because they are using for gain -- I have many customers who use them in Power Supplies!!! Not even in the audio path. And you know, I tell them to use a $15 dollar 5u4 instead... but they don't want to. because they like the Idea of using a quality part in the bowel of their tube build.
I don't ridicule them for being a layman or idiotic, or cork-sniffing.
People for the most part, like Western Electric components because of the higher build and sound quality. This may or may not matter for diodes.. I just want you to know that it will probably matter to some, and being open minded to that is OK.
And, if you missed my answer to someone, 35 pages ago (joke!).. and wait for it..... wait for it.... I dooo sell them! 5pcs for $22. I have sold, maybe 3 lots over 3 freaki'n years. .....
No customers have given me feedback on them, because they were doing otherstuff with them (not pedals). And, because.. apparantly to you guys... I am such a technical dunce, as to not know anything about Pedal building..
I actually then had the gaul to come on here and offer a few people sample to see if they are trash... or not!
Spending and losing personal money on postage.
If hear back that these pretty much, bad-ass diodes do work, at least as well as a Sylvania, for something.. then my evil capitalist self will sleep better at night knowing that they *do* work in pedals.
The reason they cost $22/5pcs
1) I bought them (believe it or not)
2) takes me time and tape to process the order
3) Ebay charges about 12% fees
4) I often loose a little $ on shipping.
So I am maybe grossing (not netting) about $3.50 each for time, trouble and work. That clearly evil I guess.
The fact that you guys can get 30pcs for $5 is to me sick. I don't know how anyone could live on that.
Anybody heard of living wage? (joke, sort of)
Do you guys rip on PedalPCB this hard?
Nostradoomus
Well-known member
please stop
I am leaving. I met a few hobbyists like I said. (2 or three sample takers, I think) Postage was on my dime. And I expect nothing in return, other than an non public opinion.
Will keep private, here on out.
This thread is Over as far as I am concerned.
I am sorry if I made people angry.. and I feel bad about all the back and forth -- it's made me sick, and hurt my feelings a bit.
I hope you all have no hard feelings, though.
Take care and best regards to all.
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DeadAirMD
Well-known member
"I say you guys are hiding behind the security of what works, and might be afraid to try something new / funky / better, what-have-you."
Bud, you have "100%" missed the point of what everyone feels here. We have ALL tried tons of "mojo" diodes and we have all come to the conclusion that the "cheaper" stuff sounds exactly the same.
Even with NOS transistors........the name literally means nothing, it's the specs they carry. If a $.10 2n5088 transistor has the same specs as a NOS transistor for the job, it's not hard to decide what to buy. People will still buy the NOS stuff for aesthetic alone, but that group of people will never grow to massive numbers. It's a finite group.
Nobody wanted to intentionally hurt feelings. The constant harping that we were all wrong when we have all been through this before, stirred the pot
Bud, you have "100%" missed the point of what everyone feels here. We have ALL tried tons of "mojo" diodes and we have all come to the conclusion that the "cheaper" stuff sounds exactly the same.
Even with NOS transistors........the name literally means nothing, it's the specs they carry. If a $.10 2n5088 transistor has the same specs as a NOS transistor for the job, it's not hard to decide what to buy. People will still buy the NOS stuff for aesthetic alone, but that group of people will never grow to massive numbers. It's a finite group.
Nobody wanted to intentionally hurt feelings. The constant harping that we were all wrong when we have all been through this before, stirred the pot
Hey @DeadAirMD....I was going to stay shut up on this.. But now you are moving into an area I was trying to politely say abreast of for all the same reasons, and worse.
I don't really want the last word here, and it's off topic. I don't think so of you guys want me starting any new threads.
I think you are right to want to compare specs.
I am curious where switching speed or, "slew rate" (for transistor's that's more like (ft) is of your favorite cheap devices. This is a key differing spec I am not seeing anyone mention. Schottkey diodes are way faster than Germanium I think.
There are allot of factors you guys may or may not be geeking out on, when it comes to Diodes... and Transistors are worse.
So will state some specs:
Transistors different beast.. more active in the context even of building pedals. Now you're talking about an active device providing amplification, and most certainly in your signal path. Also you and @PedalBuilder are sort of saying differing. Pedalbuilder said it's not so much specs and viewing on a scope, it's more how it sounds.
OK, lets talk specs and ratings of "so called mojo stuff".
You are mentioning a 2N5088. That's not even germanium. That's a silicon, and of course it's going to have a much different operating characteristic and sound.
So lets compare some Germaniums... (Western Electric transistors, are not Germanium ~ they are actually Germanium Alloy)
(WE used an alloy to prevent the drift, and enhance heat stability among other things. While this may not lend itself to fidelity.. it sure as hell does sound and work a little different.)
Lets use some not perfect, but close examples... I drafted up a quick table using factory published specs with not much sales blather.
I chose a RCA 2N consumer transistor, but I think specs on other are about the same.
I should be comparing transistors intended strictly for audio. But there are not many of those, and the microwave and under transistors, mostly all work fine.
Based on specs... same package size.
All things being equal, you've got to say the WE looks at very least, interesting..compared to any other brand. .
You be the judge.
I am also attaching a photo of the specs, in which I drew this out of.
I think there is a much better argument for "diodes of equal specs all sounding the same".
But, the specs have to be the same. Since this was expensive military grade stuff, most of the specs are not the same, and cannot be easily equaled by any other brand in the same package. I am not saying they will sound better in your project, but I am saying they will be different and not easily matched by much else in your "mojo stash". Sometimes military, super grade, and aerospace stuff *does not* sound better in HiFi land. I always recommend consumer tubes, over RCA command series tubes for instance.
There may be a mistake here, so if there is something that you see crazy different, I have attached the real WE paper .
The Thermal Resistance, spec is referring to heat tolerance, not Electrical.
I have 3 more pages of specs, if anybody wants to see all of the charts.
I don't really want the last word here, and it's off topic. I don't think so of you guys want me starting any new threads.
I think you are right to want to compare specs.
I am curious where switching speed or, "slew rate" (for transistor's that's more like (ft) is of your favorite cheap devices. This is a key differing spec I am not seeing anyone mention. Schottkey diodes are way faster than Germanium I think.
There are allot of factors you guys may or may not be geeking out on, when it comes to Diodes... and Transistors are worse.
So will state some specs:
Transistors different beast.. more active in the context even of building pedals. Now you're talking about an active device providing amplification, and most certainly in your signal path. Also you and @PedalBuilder are sort of saying differing. Pedalbuilder said it's not so much specs and viewing on a scope, it's more how it sounds.
OK, lets talk specs and ratings of "so called mojo stuff".
You are mentioning a 2N5088. That's not even germanium. That's a silicon, and of course it's going to have a much different operating characteristic and sound.
So lets compare some Germaniums... (Western Electric transistors, are not Germanium ~ they are actually Germanium Alloy)
(WE used an alloy to prevent the drift, and enhance heat stability among other things. While this may not lend itself to fidelity.. it sure as hell does sound and work a little different.)
Lets use some not perfect, but close examples... I drafted up a quick table using factory published specs with not much sales blather.
I chose a RCA 2N consumer transistor, but I think specs on other are about the same.
I should be comparing transistors intended strictly for audio. But there are not many of those, and the microwave and under transistors, mostly all work fine.
Based on specs... same package size.
All things being equal, you've got to say the WE looks at very least, interesting..compared to any other brand. .
You be the judge.
I am also attaching a photo of the specs, in which I drew this out of.
I think there is a much better argument for "diodes of equal specs all sounding the same".
But, the specs have to be the same. Since this was expensive military grade stuff, most of the specs are not the same, and cannot be easily equaled by any other brand in the same package. I am not saying they will sound better in your project, but I am saying they will be different and not easily matched by much else in your "mojo stash". Sometimes military, super grade, and aerospace stuff *does not* sound better in HiFi land. I always recommend consumer tubes, over RCA command series tubes for instance.
There may be a mistake here, so if there is something that you see crazy different, I have attached the real WE paper .
The Thermal Resistance, spec is referring to heat tolerance, not Electrical.
I have 3 more pages of specs, if anybody wants to see all of the charts.
Attachments
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Nostradoomus
Well-known member
Honest question: can superior manufacturing overcome any of the inherent limitations of germanium semiconductors?
Personally, I’m a bit neurotic about potential failures in my builds (which are for me just a hobby), so I rarely use germanium even when the BOM calls for it. In particular, I rarely use ge diodes, and almost always use e.g. BAT41 instead.
One of my earliest builds was the BYOC Silver Pony (Klone). This was a kit build, where all the parts came with the purchase (quite literally paint by numbers). It didn’t work quite right. BYOC helped me quite a bit both on the forums and via private emails. We couldn’t figure it out, so they had me send it in. Turned out to be bad ge diodes. They fixed it for me (even cleaned up some of my shabby lead dress!) and sent it back in perfect working condition.
Besides the appreciation for BYOC’s exemplary customer support, the bad ge diodes left an impression on me, and have made me approach ge with some trepidation ever since.
Besides that personal experience, I know Skreddy (boutique builder) is moving away from ge due to the inherent reliability issues (he says so directly on his Screwdriver product page IIRC).
The point is, we know germanium is technically inferior to silicon.
Hence my question - is it realistically or even theoretically possible to overcome some or all of ge’s fundamental limitations through superior/advanced manufacturing?
That seems to be part of the pitch here. But it’s also kind of a fun thought experiment: let’s say we started making ge semiconductors again - would 50+ years of technological advancement allow us to make a ge semiconductor capable of competing with silicon in any application?
Personally, I’m a bit neurotic about potential failures in my builds (which are for me just a hobby), so I rarely use germanium even when the BOM calls for it. In particular, I rarely use ge diodes, and almost always use e.g. BAT41 instead.
One of my earliest builds was the BYOC Silver Pony (Klone). This was a kit build, where all the parts came with the purchase (quite literally paint by numbers). It didn’t work quite right. BYOC helped me quite a bit both on the forums and via private emails. We couldn’t figure it out, so they had me send it in. Turned out to be bad ge diodes. They fixed it for me (even cleaned up some of my shabby lead dress!) and sent it back in perfect working condition.
Besides the appreciation for BYOC’s exemplary customer support, the bad ge diodes left an impression on me, and have made me approach ge with some trepidation ever since.
Besides that personal experience, I know Skreddy (boutique builder) is moving away from ge due to the inherent reliability issues (he says so directly on his Screwdriver product page IIRC).
The point is, we know germanium is technically inferior to silicon.
Hence my question - is it realistically or even theoretically possible to overcome some or all of ge’s fundamental limitations through superior/advanced manufacturing?
That seems to be part of the pitch here. But it’s also kind of a fun thought experiment: let’s say we started making ge semiconductors again - would 50+ years of technological advancement allow us to make a ge semiconductor capable of competing with silicon in any application?
Fama
Well-known member
I've never heard of germanium parts failing in use (outside of burning them when soldering or feeding them the wrong kind of power, although I'm sure it's possible for them to fail over time too, in some cases), rather the way it's usually been framed is about 1.) variability and 2.) temperature stability.
So I would suspect the reliability is more about those issues (plus the reliability of supply these days) rather than failing over time.
As for how good Ge semiconductors we could make these the answer is probably "definitely better than what they could back then if we had the market, the time and the money to build up and research manufacturing for that". The easiest way to improve on variability would be to test and bin them at the factory, of course. And I'm sure temperature stability could be messed with too (you could even implement something like the Benson heater trick inside the part itself).
But I don't think that's really important for this discussion. We can get around variability by testing and matching the parts ourselves. Not sure if the temperature stability would be much better than other parts, and frankly that's usually brought up with transistors and not diodes (although it could affect diodes too, I don't know). The temp thing usually isn't a huge priority since most of us are more "bedroom player" type people, and not "outdoor gig in the sun" type people, as far as I can tell.
Now, the obvious drawback with matching the parts yourself is cost, since you need to buy more parts to get matching ones. But then, the issue with these magic diodes is also cost, so that pretty much cancels out straight away.
Are you asking me? (I have been muzzled, I think) -
Yes, talking transistors.... germanium is inferior in leakage and heat. And Germanium Alloy (WE) is only some better. Nothing like silicon.
I am not pitching anything, but it seems I have been drawn into a debate that pits me, against people who think "all diodes and transistors of matching spec sound the same." Since that does not agree with my personal experience... and that of my customers (for both cheap and expensive items)... then I am countering them, hopefully with logic. And if I have time.. then specs.
- but you asked... Yes, according to WE. I am looking now, but their test / life failure date was published allot of times with most of the devices (as uses were often critical). Naturally they did not want Nike missle systems to screw up, so yeah.. the failure rate when these things were new was really, really low, compared to consumer grade stuff.
Now, if we are comparing pulled, used parts (which they often are, and have seen hours) an age -- this degrades things.
If you are building new stuff and you want absolute relibility, I would just use new stuff too. That's not what I was arguing.
New Schottkey's for instance.. I am sure they never fail? You guys tell me.
Sound quality or tone? I would try it this old stuff (check the specs to see if it's like to make a difference to you.
(Old stuff is relatively cheap on ebay... no one really wants this old stuff yet, I would say.. just you wait).
Nostradoomus
Well-known member
Silver Blues
Well-known member
All of this is exactly my point. We believe you that these diodes are high quality and precision-engineered and maybe rare and somewhat different, and maybe that's why they're so expensive, okay great. The problem is that none of that stuff matters here. If what we were building were space probes and heavy machinery and scientific instruments (don't even get me started there) then maybe it might be worth starting to talk about the tech specs and comparing the quality of the engineering. There is no question at all that these things WILL work as clipping diodes in a pedal (I don't think there's any reason for them not to, they're just a silicon small-signal diode, right) so let's forget about that. The unanswered question is how do they sound? If they sound good and someone likes them then they might be worth it to that person and that's like, the end of the discussion. Just try the diodes and see how they sound.
No one said this. No one thinks this. Being "realistic" about expectations of cost to performance ratio doesn't mean "blindly pay more for an item because it must be better because it's more expensive", there are plenty of examples where this is starkly not the case - and "better" is a real moving target depending on the requirements of the application, which IS the point. Let's agree that there's nothing wrong with any of the typical diodes that we are all using as clippers in pedals, these are plenty well-enough engineered for this application (defective or damaged samples notwithstanding) and generally dirt cheap.
I skimmed most of this thread (although not super closely so forgive me if this has already come up). I feel like there's a disconnect here between what someone would prioritize when they want high fidelity play back. Like someone looking to get the best listening experience for their records. Versus performance playback. I have so much shit in my signal chain the element in the clipping diodes I'm using is pretty much only noticable if I'm switching between an LED and anything else (si, ge). Even then, once I've compensated for volume the tonal difference is pretty negligible. If I want the compression of a silicon diode with my LED clipping I can turn up the gain.
My favorite guitar isn't even grounded. I play noisey music though so it doesn't really matter. I did spend $15 on an lm301 in the metal can format a few months ago. It looks great (in the pedal that I will never open up ever again).
My favorite guitar isn't even grounded. I play noisey music though so it doesn't really matter. I did spend $15 on an lm301 in the metal can format a few months ago. It looks great (in the pedal that I will never open up ever again).
Nostradoomus
Well-known member
no stop he'll just keep coming back
