Noob Question - Relays

[BuddytheReow]

Edit: See post #30 for another question to the forum

I should have asked this a long time ago. What’s the deal with relay bypass? I mean, what is it? What does it do that a standard stomp switch can’t do? I see many of you with relay bypass boards in your builds, but I don’t understand the purpose of them other than more time with an iron.

I’m not trying to be whiny or condescending. I’d just like to know what the appeal is. Thanks

 

[Smrtokvitek]

• Reliability of a relay in comparison to a mechanical switch.
• Soft switch.
• The possible momentary function of a switch if you implement it.
• Not that much more expensive.
• External switching is made easy if you implement it.

 

[Harry Klippton]

Relay bypass also offered soft, mushy switching with little to no haptic feedback

 

[neiltheseal]

Not that much more expensive.

Do you know a place where I can find non latching relays for cheap?

I’m interested in trying this out but a 3pdt is just so cheap

 

[damianvila]

In theory, a momentary switch should last longer than a latching one. You can normally see latching lasting 10k+, while momentary last 50k+. But I've seen latching ones rated at 50k+ cycles.

Doing a relay bypass circuit is a challenge, and a lot of people like that challenge, but those circuits are more complicated an expensive.
I was experimenting with ATTinys, but prices for microcontrollers are through the roof, so I decided a good ol' 3PDT was a more sensible option.

 

[benny_profane]

Relay bypass also offered soft, mushy switching with little to no haptic feedback

Carling SPST switches have tactile feedback and higher actuation force than the typical SPST switches.

https://www.amplifiedparts.com/products/footswitch-carling-spst-fender-switching-pedals

 

[BuddytheReow]

So, it’s implementing a momentary stomp switch in lieu of latching because they last longer? Has anyone had a latching switch fail on them on a build? It’s one thing if they came in the mail defective, but I’m not asking that. I’ve never had one die on me. Or I don’t use my pedals enough

 

[damianvila]

So, it’s implementing a momentary stomp switch in lieu of latching because they last longer? Has anyone had a latching switch fail on them on a build? It’s one thing if they came in the mail defective, but I’m not asking that. I’ve never had one die on me. Or I don’t use my pedals enough

Let's do some math!

Let's say you turn on/off a pedal 8 times in a song (a booster that you use for a solo and a few important parts, or a distortion you use on/off during the concert). And you play 20 songs (so, you turn it on/off 160 times in a concert). A 10k cycles switch will last you 60.5 concerts. If you play every week (around 52 weeks in a year), and don't use the pedal in rehearsal, it will last you around a year and a couple months.

If you only use the pedal a few times in a concert (let's say it's some weird modulation pedal you use of a couple parts in a song or two, or it's one of those "always on" pedals), and you only use 4 cycles per concert, it will last you 2500 concerts, or 48 years if you play every weekend (as long as you don't use it for rehearsals or at home).

Now, if you are a hobbyist that has too many pedals at home (cough! cough!, sorry...) and you barely use them, maybe once or twice in a period of several months, it may last a lifetime.

So, it depends on the use you give to the pedal. If you're just doing pedals for you, and you know you don't use them much, it's ok to just use 3PDT, but if you plan on selling any of your pedals, you better have an idea of the kind of player you're selling your pedals to, because you may have a customer asking for a repair in no time, specially if it's a gigging musician that plays constantly.

Also, if you want to do fancy things, like momentary modes for your pedal, going with a relay bypass is a must.

 

[damianvila]

Do you know a place where I can find non latching relays for cheap?

I’m interested in trying this out but a 3pdt is just so cheap

Omron G6K line are one of the cheapest miniature relays I've found.

 

[steviejr92]

It’s the reliability of those switches. They will last longer than a mechanical switch and I want to say they also prevent popping when engaging and disengaging the pedal. I think this is due to what @Harry Klippton said about it having less haptic feedback.

 

[szukalski]

I like them because they are soft and nice to touch. Squishy goodness.

Do you know a place where I can find non latching relays for cheap?

I’m interested in trying this out but a 3pdt is just so cheap

Fujitsu FTR B3A / B4A from LCSC are usually under a buck each.

Also, shameless plug: https://github.com/szukalski/pedal-simple-relay

 

[szukalski]

Also, I should add that I am weak and lazy, so the light touch to toggle the pedal state appeals to me.

 

[BuddytheReow]

Let's do some math!

Let's say you turn on/off a pedal 8 times in a song (a booster that you use for a solo and a few important parts, or a distortion you use on/off during the concert). And you play 20 songs (so, you turn it on/off 160 times in a concert). A 10k cycles switch will last you 60.5 concerts. If you play every week (around 52 weeks in a year), and don't use the pedal in rehearsal, it will last you around a year and a couple months.

If you only use the pedal a few times in a concert (let's say it's some weird modulation pedal you use of a couple parts in a song or two, or it's one of those "always on" pedals), and you only use 4 cycles per concert, it will last you 2500 concerts, or 48 years if you play every weekend (as long as you don't use it for rehearsals or at home).

Now, if you are a hobbyist that has too many pedals at home (cough! cough!, sorry...) and you barely use them, maybe once or twice in a period of several months, it may last a lifetime.

So, it depends on the use you give to the pedal. If you're just doing pedals for you, and you know you don't use them much, it's ok to just use 3PDT, but if you plan on selling any of your pedals, you better have an idea of the kind of player you're selling your pedals to, because you may have a customer asking for a repair in no time, specially if it's a gigging musician that plays constantly.

Also, if you want to do fancy things, like momentary modes for your pedal, going with a relay bypass is a must.

This makes perfect sense. I'm a bedroom player, which may explain my confusion. Maybe in a number of years (or even decades) I'll be shocked when a switch dies on me.

 

[Silver Blues]

I love relay bypass! I use it because I don't like the mechanical "thwack" that a lot of 3PDTs make, and I think the soft actuation just feels better to toggle than the mechanical switch (plus it prevents popping IME). Occasionally I'll have to use a normal 3PDT, and I've been finding that there are a few higher-end switches that do feel nice to toggle, but it's just not the same. Depending on what system you use, the cost per system can be comparable to a fancy 3PDT, so it's a no-brainer for me. It's also nice if you sometimes stomp and sometimes press with your hands - the soft-latch is a lot friendlier to the latter.

 

[neiltheseal]

I like them because they are soft and nice to touch. Squishy goodness.


Fujitsu FTR B3A / B4A from LCSC are usually under a buck each.

Also, shameless plug: https://github.com/szukalski/pedal-simple-relay

Thanks for this. Shipping is a little pricey to Australia but now I have those model numbers I might gamble on an eBay seller.

Thanks for those gerbers. That will save me some work.

 

[VanWhy]

Squishy

 

[derevaun]

I had a 3PDT fail on one of the first pedals I built (an IC Big Muff that has just always been indispensable). I don't think I've actuated it 10,000 times over ~15 years, but maybe I shortened its life with ham-fisted soldering.

I once fabbed a board using Mictester's relay switching scheme (on FSB). It uses a 40106 and a latching relay. Which, doesn't a latching relay use less quiescent current?

Anyway, that was when I tried to have a left-to-right board order (I'm left handed, cable comes from the left) so the jacks are reversed. Bad idea but it still works and the one in the Madbean Cave Dweller gets a lot of use when my kiddo plugs it in right... wrong...?

 

[owlexifry]

Thanks for this. Shipping is a little pricey to Australia but now I have those model numbers I might gamble on an eBay seller.

Thanks for those gerbers. That will save me some work.

FYI if you ever need to buy AUD$60 worth of parts, mouser will ship to us in Australia for free ($60 min purchase). and mouser have everything. (except out of production/NOS stuff)

Let's do some math!

Let's say you turn on/off a pedal 8 times in a song (a booster that you use for a solo and a few important parts, or a distortion you use on/off during the concert). And you play 20 songs (so, you turn it on/off 160 times in a concert). A 10k cycles switch will last you 60.5 concerts. If you play every week (around 52 weeks in a year), and don't use the pedal in rehearsal, it will last you around a year and a couple months.

If you only use the pedal a few times in a concert (let's say it's some weird modulation pedal you use of a couple parts in a song or two, or it's one of those "always on" pedals), and you only use 4 cycles per concert, it will last you 2500 concerts, or 48 years if you play every weekend (as long as you don't use it for rehearsals or at home).

Now, if you are a hobbyist that has too many pedals at home (cough! cough!, sorry...) and you barely use them, maybe once or twice in a period of several months, it may last a lifetime.

So, it depends on the use you give to the pedal. If you're just doing pedals for you, and you know you don't use them much, it's ok to just use 3PDT, but if you plan on selling any of your pedals, you better have an idea of the kind of player you're selling your pedals to, because you may have a customer asking for a repair in no time, specially if it's a gigging musician that plays constantly.

Also, if you want to do fancy things, like momentary modes for your pedal, going with a relay bypass is a must.

to me this sounds like a really good idea/application for pedals that would be known / expected to have a lot of heavy use (engagement/bypass) - like my main overdrive for example..

perhaps i should consider retrofitting a relay bypass

 

[drgonzo1969]

I like the quietness of the momentary switches. I don't want to wake my wife and daughter when I'm playing guitar with headphones at night. Normal switches can be heard all the way across the apartment and sometimes wake up my daughter. I can only imagine my neighbors downstairs can hear the stomp switches at night too but she hasnt said anything.

 

[Laundryroom David]

I built a Madbean laureate that has relay switching and I do really like it. I didn’t realize the longevity angle until reading this thread. Has me thinking. Thinking often gets expensive for me